Lies

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Re: Lies

Postby DavidB » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:18 pm

Sometimes the situation does not call for honesty.

If there were a family of Jews hiding under my house attempting to escape Nazis Germany, I wouldn't choose honesty in this situation and thereby reveal their location to the Gestapo.
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Re: Lies

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:44 pm

DavidB wrote:Sometimes the situation does not call for honesty.

If there were a family of Jews hiding under my house attempting to escape Nazis Germany, I wouldn't choose honesty in this situation and thereby reveal their location to the Gestapo.


Yeah, but that's an example for an entirely different context I feel.

Honesty being the highest form of Love really means in my opinion, being honest with yourself first and foremost within. How are my feeling in this moment which I am then projecting on to someone or something else? Am I being honest with myself here or am I trying to manipulate another because I am afraid to face what is present in my experience? I used to manipulate girls in relationships because I would always try to get something out of it by attempting to control the situation. I was possessive and jealous because I was afraid to be unloved. So, I lied to girls since I didn't want them to see who I truly was in that given moment.

That's changed completely for me over the past few years. I no longer try to gain anything from other people in that regard. The more I've gone within myself, no matter how ugly it appears, I'm learning to be present with what is. So, when dealing with a girl for example, I will be up front about who I am in the context of not attempting to lie in order to control/manipulate another from a place of limitation/ego. Granted, I'm not going to delve every detail perhaps, but I'm also not going to withold details about myself for the purpose of manipulation. There's a big difference. Lying within the context of Love, can be a form of manipulation and control. Wanting to control, control, control to satisfy the comfort level of the ego.
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Re: Lies

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:54 pm

Can honesty ever be a lie?
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:29 pm

You can intend to be honest and communicate "the truth" to a person. But if your communication is unclear and/or if the person's interpretation is off, something entirely different than your intended truth can be communicated. I wouldn't call that lying, but I also wouldn't call it truthful communication.
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Re: Lies

Postby DavidB » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:08 am

Are we confusing honesty with genuine and/or sincere?
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:36 am

Rach said Honesty is great, as long as it isn't self serving (to make the truth teller feel virtuous) and doesn't cause unnecessary suffering.

Can we back up a bit Rach - can you see how in that scenario you would be firstly and mostly lying to yourself and creating your own unnecessary suffering?

....
The truth can cause all sorts of suffering - our relationship to it is what matters, what is experienced. One cannot change the truth - one can only change one's relationship to it. In terms of honesty being the highest form of love, all the other forms of love come with it - integrity, generosity, gratitude, compassion, not being boastful, being patient, kind etc etc etc so honesty being the highest form of love is not mean or ungrateful or disgraceful etc etc

DavidB said: If there were a family of Jews hiding under my house attempting to escape Nazis Germany, I wouldn't choose honesty in this situation and thereby reveal their location to the Gestapo.


As I said before it's not about right or wrong, it's about whether you believe the lies.

In that situation you would be telling an untruth to another in full knowledge of doing so - while not lying to your self. That is a situation where you must have weighed it up (awareness, capacity & willingness to do so) and thought you would be prepared to accept the natural consequences of that rather than the natural consequences of telling the truth if asked.

There would be no love between you and a Nazi officer, or you wouldn't have hidden their enemy from them in the first place.

From earlier -
Far better when I accepted that for many different reasons, in many different situations, with many different fears and avoidances, good people do lie, including me. I then could move into becoming more aware of the distortion of the truth occurring in fear - and testing the accuracy of the fear, shedding light on those falsities that the later ones are built upon.
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:22 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Rach said Honesty is great, as long as it isn't self serving (to make the truth teller feel virtuous) and doesn't cause unnecessary suffering.

Can we back up a bit Rach - can you see how in that scenario you would be firstly and mostly lying to yourself and creating your own unnecessary suffering?

In the qualified scenario about the wife and husband, no. The wife, as I see it, has homed in on the big picture and chosen to lie by omission (temporarily) to prevent doing potentially great harm to both the husband and the relationship. I see it as an act of compassion, intelligence, and courage.
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:05 am

For example, let's say you've just found out that your job is probably going to be cut and are emotionally devastated.


:roll:
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Re: Lies

Postby rachMiel » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:51 pm

Aha. Gotcha.

In order to lie to yourself, you have to know the truth. Consciously know it. If you don't know it, or if you know it unconsciously (with no conscious access to it) ... then not acting on it is ignorance, not lying.

So what you see as the woman lying to herself I see as the woman not understanding the difference between thought and actuality.

Ja? Nein? Ja'ein? :-)
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Re: Lies

Postby smiileyjen101 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:44 am

So what you see as the woman lying to herself I see as the woman not understanding the difference between thought and actuality.

Ja? Nein? Ja'ein? :-)

:D I have to say, I really don't know Rach. What I see of the woman is projecting into lots of different (other than now) moments in fear. Fear for her self, fear for her husband all in the future. Those fears are based on other fears based on other fears based on other fears ad infinitum.

What is within her awareness, capacity and willingness right now is her feeling and expression of her love for her husband. Full stop.

The rest is just storytelling with possible ... not even probable... possible natural paths of possible consequences of possible circumstances of possible actions or reactions.

Her telling her husband the facts that have led her to think that she might lose her job might allow him to share a different perspective of that as an opportunity rather than a catastrophe, it could/might (not impossible) motivate him to absolutely ace the test so he can access a fruitful job --- do you see the 'assumptions' that are inherent with fear are all negative assumptions that can not be responded to in balance.

Even if the assumption is merely that what is is not okay - there is no balance there is no truth, there is avoidance or rejection of what is / might be, and overlaying of what (actually) is, to distraction.

For me, what is includes a totally transient and honest meeting of awareness, capacity & willingness in the moment - not in the projection or rejection of the moment but actually responding with what you have IN the moment.

I need to story tell ... I realised this most keenly coming from a once adamant stance that the truth is the truth is the truth hard line. After my nde the 'shades of grey' were most apparent - seriously 'visible' in terms of feeling, knowing, registering 'intention' and fears amid what was this avoidance or rejection of what is.

The scenario was that amid all the trauma and tragedy of my son's short life the staying with 'what is' allowed us to be free of fear - reactions maybe not so much, but pretty much free of fear. So when I was then in the company of people who held me in such high regard and compassion and love, diagnosed with something that they would prefer I hadn't been, they ... to a one... all went through this struggle with what is, a grief of sorts - denial, anger, sadness, resistance, rejection etc. I took the news fine, I would meet it as it was, when it was with whatever awareness, capacity I had available to me in each moment. I didn't struggle or stress or suffer. It was shit, sure, but then shit happens, it is what it is.

The 'old' me, recognised the 'lies' that it wouldn't be what it was, that it would be something less awful, that regardless of whether I deserved it or not, and all of that fussing was like static buzzing around the still truth.... it is what it is. And so here I was with this immense love for people who were lying to themselves, and even trying to enlist me to join them in their beliefs. At the same time I was recognising their fear, they were lying to themselves and me with all the very best of intentions - wishing me less discomfort in my rather sh*tty circumstances at the time. I found compassion for them, but not once buying into the lies myself.

It was such a shift - such an 'aha' set of moments as one after the other they all 'made up stories' rather than sit with the truth. Sure the truth was a bitch, but for me it was just 'new information' to process, to accommodate, to meet within my own level of awareness, capacity & willingness in each moment as best as I could. That's all we all do (in actuality, when there's no time left for lying to ourselves or avoiding our reality).

The choices that we then make are not made in fear. They are made in clarity, they are made pragmatically, you do what you can do in this moment, moment by moment by moment. And in that clarity in those moments even the worst of fears are really not as bad as we imagined them to be.

The thing with it though is that you don't know that beforehand.

You can only know that in it.

It is what it is, and by applying honestly, our awareness, capacity & willingness, without avoidance or rejection, we are simply doing our best with what we've been given, both in terms of circumstances (actual moment by moment not imagined into the future or wallowing in what has passed), and in terms of our own and others' awareness, capacity & willingness.

So is the 'difference' in how we see it as you think - is it ignorance? If it is it's not ignorance of the factors of the circumstances (content) so much as ignorance as to the process of choosing fear or choosing honesty - honesty is the highest form of love because it says okay, it is what it is and works with (in) it.

I don't know if I can explain that any other way.

So what you see as the woman lying to herself I see as the woman not understanding the difference between thought and actuality.

That's a good start, but that would be within her awareness, capacity & willingness and only she would be able to ascertain which one was causing her suffering, and her projection of that suffering onto her husband as if it was real too.
In that scenario she is going through the process of journeying between her own expectations and reality with just the hint that the 'job security' that she must have thought she had, may not be 'real'. These expectation to reality journeys are the stuff of life, and of learning, and of expanding our awareness, capacity & if we're not incredibly pig-headed, our willingness.
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