The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:41 am

Thanks for the post Jen.

I agree with your description of London comment. That is actually the exact analogy I use sometimes myself - that a sign pointing to London is not London, nor is any individual's experience of it the same as the totality of all the experiences that together make London. I think I specifically mentioned something like that in my post - I wasn't trying to say all NDErs have the same experience.

I also agree with your point that nothing is 'detrimental'. I think I mentioned that my view is that whatever arises to the individual in the moment is what I believe is right for them in that moment. In that respect there isn't really any right or wrong, simply what arises to an individual in the moment - simply what is. So I wasn't criticising their experience for them in the moment they have it, nor the experience of them recalling it later, nor their expression of their recollection, nor any interpretation of that expression. I was specifically saying that, as far as I am aware (from the few NDE accounts I've read/listened to and the generally sense I get from them via discussion with people who are more versed such as my interactions here) is that IF there is an absolute level of reality (which I believe there is and which is discussed at length by many individuals in many spiritual traditions throughout history) I am yet to encounter someone describing an NDE that points to this level. I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm not saying people who do not believe in an absolute level are wrong. I'm saying that I am yet to encounter an NDE report that points to this directly.

I had a good meditation session this morning where I was reminded to be cautious of ranking people or experiences in some kind of scale of importance. Such a scale can only exist within the confines of one's own limited perception. Rather than rating things and attempting to align with them, I can instead relax and accept that whatever arises to me now is beyond superiority and inferiority - because what arises to me is the content of my experience, which is and has only ever been what it is.

Regarding resentment I'd say I've almost certainly resented everyone here at one time or another. I should be specific about what i mean by resentment. I mean that twinge of resistance within the body. That thing that is moving against the complete acceptance of life as it is in the moment. At times this is quite subtle - my mind is still and I feel a slight tightness in my heart that then relaxes - exposing a more subtle resistance beneath it. At times it consumes me and i become lost in thoughts countering the perspective that has triggered this reaction. This is rarely my dominant mode of being - generally I would say I'm quite happy and loving. But there is always more resistance - if we do not believe it is there, i suspect we are merely blind to it. So, I am full of resentment, and full of love - I oscillate between these things. It's how I am, at least at the time of writing which is, for me, a time of cleansing - as i suspect it always will be in one way or another.

So, there may be less resistance in the light, but I suspect there is still some. I question whether the utter absence of resistance is possible, for me, experience requires resistance - without it, how would there be an ebb and flow in life? How would there be change?

For me, the absence of resistance is what i would call the absolute, for, in it's absence it is unchanging and can serve as the pivot about which relativity dances. This is how I view things in these musings now.

Regarding enlightenment, i am using it as a descriptive term to point to a specific kind of experience. An experience of transcendence. I'm not saying that experience is better than any other. I'm not saying people who live that experience are better than any other. I'm saying there seems (to me at least) to be a number of people who point to this as a valid experience and recommend it for others as an important part of their journey. Some of these people seem authentic to me, some do not - that is my own opinion based on my own intuition formed from my own experiences. No one else needs to believe the same as me - their opinions are their own, based on their own intuition, formed from their own experiences.

I point to the teachers Francis Bennett and Adyashanti (I don't know Moorjani) is because they talk about this type of absolute experience in a way that is respectful of it as an important step but in a way that is balanced with other experiences. They don't say it is superior or that all people must reach it. They say it is an important step in living a fuller human experience - but that everyone is inherently equal and none superior or inferior to any other. Though there are differences between people in the experiences they have that relate to a kind of progression that takes place within the individual as it learns through the experiences of life. So in a sense there is a scale that exists related to something that could be called spiritual advancement or skill - just as their are relative levels of skill or advancement in any activity be it bike riding or swimming or telling jokes. Being more advanced doesn't make someone superior, but it does give access to more expansive and fuller experiencing. This will never be precisely the same as someone else, so the momentary experience of the individual should be their own focus, rather than seeking to rank others in an attempt to be like them. However, there is still an external reality at play which contains within it a structure of which spiritual advancement is a valid and relevant part.

It feels good to expose and explore my beliefs honestly here - even if it does leave me vulnerable - or perhaps ESPECIALLY if it leaves me vulnerable. Pain is a part of that vulnerability so I shall anticipate that and hope to accept it and open further.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:22 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:I was specifically saying that, as far as I am aware (from the few NDE accounts I've read/listened to and the generally sense I get from them via discussion with people who are more versed such as my interactions here) is that IF there is an absolute level of reality (which I believe there is and which is discussed at length by many individuals in many spiritual traditions throughout history) I am yet to encounter someone describing an NDE that points to this level. I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm not saying people who do not believe in an absolute level are wrong. I'm saying that I am yet to encounter an NDE report that points to this directly.

Who can say whether there is an absolute level of reality without having been there. It seems like speculation. Even if one perceives him/herself as having been there, can that be a reliable perception? It may well be that only certain levels of experience are accessible until consciousness is ready to proceed.

If consciousness and being is fractal in nature, as nature appears to demonstrate, where then is the top and where is the bottom? The next level up may be so vast as to be unimaginable from a lower level. But time and experience may bring a quality of expansion where one might begin to see even greater possibilities. I don't think it serves my perspective to see life in terms of any limitation.

That kind of brings us back to the essence of this thread. Mathematics, which seems to be the language of the of the universe, suggests infinite possibilities. Does this not also indicate that the 'Absolute' is evolutionary by its very nature? Could the human experience, and for that matter all new experience in whatever venue it may be occurring, be an element of the evolution and expansion of the Absolute? How does it feel?

WW
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:56 pm

I don't see the absolute as an end point. I see it as infinite (probably) with potential for levels of existence beyond it. Adyashanti describes it in this way - saying that people who experience it often believe it cannot be any more than their experience of it, however, if they proceed they realise it is as a multi-faceted diamond with endless progression. I see the formless as probably the same as form - an infinite fractal dance.

I agree with you that seeing it as an end point would introduce limitation that is probably a narrow way of perceiving reality.

I am speculating here / hypothesising. I haven't experienced this directly. Me drawing information from Francis and Adya seems to me as you guys drawing information from NDErs. We are all hypothesising and experimenting and exploring - offering our findings to one another and planning and executing new experiments based on this interactions. It's fascinating to be flung into the mind blowing diversity of life.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:21 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:We are all hypothesising and experimenting and exploring - offering our findings to one another and planning and executing new experiments based on this interactions. It's fascinating to be flung into the mind blowing diversity of life.

Well said. Nice to have some clarity. The wise follow what feels right and are not swayed by someone else's logic if it doesn't expand one's perspective by inclusion. (Apologies for the verbosity.)

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby rachMiel » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:03 pm

EZ wrote:We are all hypothesising and experimenting and exploring - offering our findings to one another and planning and executing new experiments based on this interactions.

Telling stories around the (virtual) campfire. Whose turn is it?
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:52 pm

Hey rach. I think that was EZ's quote, but to your point, I think you're on deck.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby rachMiel » Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:12 am

Fixed.

My turn to tell a story? Okay. :-)

Once upon a time ...

I realized that Buddhist emptiness is not meant to be understood as a Metaphysical Truth, rather as a skillful view/means to end personal suffering. Indeed, pretty much everything in Buddhism serves that goal: To end dukkha (suffering). In that sense, Buddhist teachings are very pragmatic: If it doesn't help end suffering, or worse if it might prolong/increase suffering, Buddha did not dwell on it, or didn't go into it at all. Rather than a religion or philosophy, Buddhism (as Buddha originally taught it) is a methodology to end human suffering. Buddha was a doctor ... of the soul.

The End

(Not very sexy, I know. Where are the explosions?!)

Who'll be next to hold the talking stick? :-)
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby dijmart » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:42 am

Rach, I was just reading that same thing today. That Buddha's original teaching was all about the end of suffering. Also, they said he wouldn't even entertain questions that didn't pertain to ending suffering...such as questions regarding an afterlife. That any current Buddhism teaching regarding an afterlife where added by disiples after his death, but not by the Buddha himself.

I think all aspects of consciousness are worth exploring and even believing in depending on where your at with your own path. As far as the absolute or source, I do agree with en2b, that without the consciousness, there is no experience (or nonexperience) of an absolute. I had to contemplate this to see it. That's why imo, the absolute created/manifested it self as the many, to experience others, as well as its self.

Do you want to be? Or not to be? Hmm
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:50 am

When folks get over egoing (inserting the should on the 'is') then suffering has nothing to feed on, so I agree the emergent nature of pretty much any of the wise teachings is ffs stop hitting yourself over the head already!!!

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Aug 09, 2015 6:28 am

I'm happy too that you enjoy exploring your beliefs and bouncing them around here Zen.
I was specifically saying that, as far as I am aware (from the few NDE accounts I've read/listened to and the generally sense I get from them via discussion with people who are more versed such as my interactions here) is that IF there is an absolute level of reality (which I believe there is and which is discussed at length by many individuals in many spiritual traditions throughout history) I am yet to encounter someone describing an NDE that points to this level. I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm not saying people who do not believe in an absolute level are wrong. I'm saying that I am yet to encounter an NDE report that points to this directly.


:? Well that's because I'd hazard a guess that's NOT what an nde is. So it's a bit like asking a Liverpudlian to tell you all about London that they've never been to :?

I don't know anyone who would say that the awareness in the light is the end point. It seems far more like the holographic nature of the universe is apparent in motion (eternal and exponential motion).

I would say I totally agree with your following quote Zen --- it just is what it is --- whether that be unawareness, incapable or ignorance, egoic being, aware being, nde-awareness being or IF there are others .. those too.
" Rather than rating things and attempting to align with them, I can instead relax and accept that whatever arises to me now is beyond superiority and inferiority - because what arises to me is the content of my experience, which is and has only ever been what it is."


As far as superior or inferior, I totally agree with above, yes, I get that it's a bit WOW - it is, just is... in comparison to wandering around with the cloaks of fear weighing heavily and believably upon us, it just is.

There is a difference in energy level, but I wouldn't say it's any more ... ack... it's not judgemental in itself and when judgementalism arises in our energy it makes that 'obvious', when ignorance arises, by it's difference in energetic vibration, it makes that obvious too.No thing --- not one thing --- was better or worse -- all the infinite myriad of possibilities were available to be known and to be chosen ---- (thy will not my will be done - whatever your 'will' is)

the 'conclusion' that I came to - for my own self - was that given all the myriad possibilities time after time, event after event an 'easier' ... (relative) more authentic, less distorted, way of flowing energies was with love and compassion. Sure rant and rave and be the best possible angry / judgemental / resistant you can muster.... it is what it is...

Zen I should be specific about what i mean by resentment. I mean that twinge of resistance within the body. That thing that is moving against the complete acceptance of life as it is in the moment. At times this is quite subtle - my mind is still and I feel a slight tightness in my heart that then relaxes - exposing a more subtle resistance beneath it.


Okay, semantics :wink: I 'notice' those as 'niggles'. I see them as a gift because it's surely showing me where I am odds with what is. I figure experientially they are 'pay attention' moments, attention getters. I've found in the past that if I ignore them they get pokier, more insistent, until they end up being a great big whack across the head with a heavy wet lump of meat.

How else will our attention be specifically honed to 'see', that which we are blinded to?

Zen said: At times it consumes me and i become lost in thoughts countering the perspective that has triggered this reaction. This is rarely my dominant mode of being - generally I would say I'm quite happy and loving. But there is always more resistance - if we do not believe it is there, i suspect we are merely blind to it. So, I am full of resentment, and full of love - I oscillate between these things. It's how I am, at least at the time of writing which is, for me, a time of cleansing - as i suspect it always will be in one way or another.

So, there may be less resistance in the light, but I suspect there is still some. I question whether the utter absence of resistance is possible, for me, experience requires resistance - without it, how would there be an ebb and flow in life? How would there be change?


This is brilliant Zen ^^ hmm it was truly my greatest learning in the light - and it's multi faceted, so much so London might as well be calling Liverpool! I was holding that resistance, yes resentment you're right, on a number of things and levels, the two most intense (& because of their energetic 'difference' most obvious in that frequency) I'd say were the rolled tightly into a mass of fear and hatred and egoing over a friend's murder when we were teenagers, and two, the absolute willfulness of myself in that I was ready to fight heaven or hell or both for my son's life that I knew to be 'threatened'. Both were ego in fear wrapped in ignorance and impotence, which just fuels ego and fear even more.

You said "experience requires resistance - without it, how would there be an ebb and flow in life? How would there be change?"

There is change, and there is change - different degrees of it. The flow of life is eternal and exponential. The power of grace - is the only word I can find to describe it - is where/when one is seamlessly in that flow, it's flying rather than crawling through the fog and over the boulders. What I noticed in the 'difference' in energies, that I was 'lacking' in my egoing, was grace. Grace is the fuel of creation - by grace all things are, free flowing and unresisting to what 'is' and what is evolving. I was 'stuck' and fearful and angry and impotent because of my lack of grace. In that instant - so quick like the release of the build up of energies in a sneeze or a fart or the big bang or a firework going off - bang! there it was - grace was now known to me, known as a potential, known as a possible, known as absolutely okay ---- okay to let go, unravel and be with what is.

Did that mean I never got stuck again? Hell no!! Getting stuck is part of the journey and the more stuck we get the more changed we are - relatively --- you are right there --- propelled we are, when it explodes and/or we let go.

It's funny to hear such seemingly innocent & naive mutterings as 'resistance is futile' ... but it truly, truly is when you can see it from the wider perspective.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Onceler » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:24 pm

rachMiel wrote:Fixed.

My turn to tell a story? Okay. :-)

Once upon a time ...

I realized that Buddhist emptiness is not meant to be understood as a Metaphysical Truth, rather as a skillful view/means to end personal suffering. Indeed, pretty much everything in Buddhism serves that goal: To end dukkha (suffering). In that sense, Buddhist teachings are very pragmatic: If it doesn't help end suffering, or worse if it might prolong/increase suffering, Buddha did not dwell on it, or didn't go into it at all. Rather than a religion or philosophy, Buddhism (as Buddha originally taught it) is a methodology to end human suffering. Buddha was a doctor ... of the soul.

The End

(Not very sexy, I know. Where are the explosions?!)

Who'll be next to hold the talking stick? :-)


Nice, Rach. I guess I'm Buddhist at heart.....despite some metaphysical side trips, I'm all about ending my own suffering and, more and more, the suffering of others. This end goal seems to keep us planted firmly in this reality. May I add that, as my suffering diminishes, this reality becomes more complex and mysterious. Without the filter of suffering, we are open to numinous and sweetness that is right here.
Be present, be pleasant.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Onceler » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:26 pm

Onceler wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Fixed.

My turn to tell a story? Okay. :-)

Once upon a time ...

I realized that Buddhist emptiness is not meant to be understood as a Metaphysical Truth, rather as a skillful view/means to end personal suffering. Indeed, pretty much everything in Buddhism serves that goal: To end dukkha (suffering). In that sense, Buddhist teachings are very pragmatic: If it doesn't help end suffering, or worse if it might prolong/increase suffering, Buddha did not dwell on it, or didn't go into it at all. Rather than a religion or philosophy, Buddhism (as Buddha originally taught it) is a methodology to end human suffering. Buddha was a doctor ... of the soul.

The End

(Not very sexy, I know. Where are the explosions?!)

Who'll be next to hold the talking stick? :-)


Nice, Rach. I guess I'm Buddhist at heart.....despite some metaphysical side trips, I'm all about ending my own suffering and, more and more, the suffering of others. This end goal seems to keep us planted firmly in this reality. May I add that, as my suffering diminishes, this reality becomes more complex and mysterious. Without the filter of suffering, we are open to numinous and sweetness that is right here.

Also, in recent readings of Adya, I hear him talking about 'no separation'. I think this closeness to life happens when the suffering filter is removed.
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