The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:55 pm

Without meaning to distract from your conversation I just wanted to say I'm learning some good new phrases from it. 'Straw man' is not a term I understood before but wikipedia tells me it is winning an argument by attacking a different point than the one put forward. Politicians do this a lot. A good term to know. Teleology is new for me too. It sounds interesting - looking to find meaning in purpose rather than cause.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:23 pm

Rob X wrote:WW, I quoted that particular line because it seems to be the justification as to why you assert that Darwin got it wrong.

It's a bit of a straw man because your original post seems to suggest that it was Darwin's theory of evolution (natural selection) that was wrong.

Darwinism is considered the cornerstone of the materialist's view of life. It is championed far and wide as proof positive of a universe based solely on physical principles. In such a view there is no greater reality, no underlying consciousness that is fundamental to this physical universe. That Darwin speculated that life's origin may be some kind of primordial goo is indicative of his misunderstanding of the true nature of life.

Yes, he recognized how environmental factors and random mutation can effect form and function, but that's a far cry from a clear understanding of the true nature of life and being. The point of this thread is to offer consideration for a greater understanding that can supersede this distorted materialistic belief in favor of a more inclusive scientific perspective. It is a perspective that can serve to unite humanity rather than divide us as in the 'survival of the fittest' ideology.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Rob X » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:03 pm

Darwin himself was not a philosopher, metaphysician or sage who claimed "a clear understanding of the true nature of life and being." There is no evidence that he believed in a universe based solely on physical principles.

The last paragraph of On the Origin of Species reads:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.

This to me is indicative of a mind that acknowledges the mystery of existence. He described himself as agnostic.

It is possible to be an advocate of Darwin/natural selection and not be a materialist. You're reading the comments of one right now. Having said that, I'm not an idealist either. I agree with Chomsky that the definition of matter in materialism has to be so extended as to make a definition meaningless. This works the other way round too, if all there is is consciousness we have to radically re-define what consciousness means. By the end of these definitions we will have arrived at the same place. Energy is consciousness. Consciousness is energy. Form is emptiness… and the whole thing is a mystery.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby rachMiel » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:14 pm

Webwanderer wrote:The details are obviously rather speculative here (maybe goo like), but the essence is that life in physical form is designed by an intelligence that had a purpose beyond randomness in creation. Evolution is not an accident of fate but a design of intelligent being. The intelligent energy behind that design is the driver of evolution. Again, just my take.

And a sweet take it is, it appeals to my panpsychist's heart, thanks for sharing.

You must be familiar with Chardin's work in this area, right? If not, you're in for a treat. :-)

Could you please direct me to a few intelligent articles by reputable authors about the kind of "intelligent design" we're talking about? I hesitate to just scour the web for information, because it will turn up so much crazy creationist stuff.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:02 pm

rachMiel wrote:Could you please direct me to a few intelligent articles by reputable authors about the kind of "intelligent design" we're talking about? I hesitate to just scour the web for information, because it will turn up so much crazy creationist stuff.

Start here with this article in the Discovery Institute. Then explore the website itself for more interesting articles and informative links. Check the 'Resources' page.

http://www.discovery.org/a/3059

Enjoy,

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Rob X wrote:This to me is indicative of a mind that acknowledges the mystery of existence. He described himself as agnostic.

Maybe we can agree to disagree on the how much Darwin got right or wrong. It may just depend on the context in which one is looking. Certainly the way Darwin is presented today by his primary advocates leaves much to question.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Rob X » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Maybe we can agree to disagree on the how much Darwin got right or wrong. It may just depend on the context in which one is looking. Certainly the way Darwin is presented today by his primary advocates leaves much to question.

WW


Yes, we can agree to disagree and then agree about the importance of context.

(That puts agreement in the lead. :D)
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby rachMiel » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:39 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
rachMiel wrote:Could you please direct me to a few intelligent articles by reputable authors about the kind of "intelligent design" we're talking about? I hesitate to just scour the web for information, because it will turn up so much crazy creationist stuff.

Start here with this article in the Discovery Institute. Then explore the website itself for more interesting articles and informative links. Check the 'Resources' page.

http://www.discovery.org/a/3059

Enjoy,

WW

Thanks!
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:04 am

Here's another good source for news relating to evolution and Intelligent Design. Their archives are filled with good reads and vids.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:22 am

Loving how this thread is spiderwebbing :D
Zen said:
I wonder with NDEs whether these people may be a little misguided by the sheer enormity of the experience they have had (and it is doubtless a huge shift that I'm not trying to take anything away from). I imagine (as with everything in life) there is huge variability between individuals - but I'd like to try and get a sense of whether, generally speaking, there may be potential risks to an experience like this.


Generally speaking, I'd agree there are risks down every and each spider-web lines we run our energy Zen, with or without an nde - thing might be that maybe, some, don't fear elements of the risks as much anymore.

The 'enlightening' part or hangover from such an experience is all-inclusive, and on some levels of awareness knowingly so, and on others blindly ignorant until such time as other levels & connections are seen.

The thing about 'in the light' is that there is no cloaks of fear or delusion or belief systems or dogma or anything else hiding anything.

I really like whoever's description it was about all the lights on in a warehouse after stumbling around in the dark with a torchlight. The thing about returning to normal(ish) sight is that you know that you are in the warehouse and how big and brilliant and immense and full of 'stuff' it is, even when the lights are off, and so one now knows not to fear shadows in the dark or dismiss that what is not necessarily seen. So one navigates 'differently' to before, even when the cloaks are wrapped around us by ourselves or by others.

(Does that even transcend understanding?)

For me though, elements of this warehouse of knowledge and understanding are not confined to nde. The intrinsic elements of them, and undoing of materialistic sciences are also utilised and apparent in empathic - across distance or transcending physical individuality experience, in precognitive awareness - transcending time with clarity of experience, and accurate clairvoyance - transcending time, space and so called death.

For me, more and more - what I learned in the light I knew and expressed innately as a small child until I was 'taught' to deny it - I am love and I am loved - fear separates, love binds. We are all taught in many ways and experiences to deny this, and then it all gets twisted. I think it is our 'natural' state, all an nde does is correct our thinking - let us see again the truth. If this happens to a child while they are in human form of course its going to give them 'ammunition' of sorts, or 'conviction' that what others are trying to brain wash them with is not true.

If it happens as an adult then there is a lot of 'undoing' of false beliefs, and I would imagine, like myself, that might open us up to experiences to 'test' what relearned in the light, particularly concerning love & compassion over fear and undoing our judgements that drove wedges between us and others. (... imho and that seems to have been my journey post nde).

The thing with evolution if you were to see it in the light, is that all parts and all stages of everything are universally now and here and us if you stop thinking of separation in terms of time, space, distance --- and as such things tend to be empirically measured against those things, then science itself would have to drop the empirical and accept the proof & the evidence, in part on faith.

thanks for the discussion :D
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:57 pm

I'm trying to work out how to frame a reply to your post Jen that is respectful of my current understand and feelings and also what you offer here and how I interpret your 'level' from it. This may go a little off topic from the OP - if so I apologise, perhaps WW or others have some information from scientific sources that may help based on what I say next.

To air what I mean I should probably begin by saying a little about how I see things now and why. This isn't set in stone, just how I see things at the time of writing. I've been paying more attention to teachers talking about the Absolute level of reality - where relativity is transcended and the individual sees that it is beyond identity - united as Spirit. Specifically I'm enjoying the discussions of Adyashanti and Francis Bennett. The way I see it, I exist as my relative human form which for a long time was my primary / sole identity. Recently, through direct experience this has shifted into a trans-dimensional view, of which the human self is a part, a significant part (while being experienced) but only a part. However, if Adya and Francis (and many other teachers throughout history) are to be believed (and I do believe them) there is a level of reality beyond this, a level where all form / relativity is transcended. This does not seem to be the same as a relative sensation or sense of Oneness, but rather a literal lived experience that utterly shatters previous perceptions. It seems likely that having experienced this the individual has awakened, and now never loses consciousness. A test of whether or not someone has reached this level may be whether or not they lose consciousness during sleep.

I imagine this view that I currently have will be at odds with how other people here view the situation. But coming at NDEs as I am from this view, I wonder about their value. This isn't to say I don't think they are valuable (I am a believer in the importance of every individual following their own path, and in that regard anyone experiencing an NDE, the after effects of it, or simply reading about them are totally validated in their actions simply by these actions arising to them). However, the teachers who seem (at least to me) to have reached a kind of Absolute level of reality are well known to advise people not to give too much attention to higher dimensional experiences. Their advice seems to be - acknowledge this experience, does it change? if it does, it is not the Absolute, carry on to the Absolute. One teacher gave his reasoning for this along the lines (paraphrased) "imagine reality is an expanse of land covered with many points of interest. Perhaps it has diamond mines and gold mines and beautiful lakes and mountains. Imagine also that there is a castle in the middle of this land. You can spend your time exploring these points of interest and have interesting and valuable experiences there. However, without a point of grounding, it can be difficult to really establish yourself in any of this points of interest and gain deep insights from them. Rather, focus on finding and claiming the castle. From this place, you can then explore the points of interest with greater depth and stability." Here the castle = the absolute and the points of interest = the transdimensional experiences available in form.

I haven't read a huge number of NDE accounts. However, the ones I have read have not mentioned the absolute level as I understand it to be. Rather, some seem to claim they have reached this level and describe themselves as "enlightened" or something similar implying reaching some absolute understanding. So, if it is beneficial (and that may be a big if so some) to reach the castle before exploring the points of interest - to transcend the relative before diving deeply into the relative - perhaps the majority of people who have NDEs and discuss them afterwards are misguided. I am using misguided here specifically to relate to someone guiding someone spiritually toward something other than the absolute. If someone were to follow the advice of such a person perhaps they would miss opportunities to have a more fulfilling lifetime via discovery of the absolute.

This isn't intended to say to anyone here or anywhere that they shouldn't pay attention to people having NDEs. As I mentioned before, I believe everyone experiences their own path and it is for them to decide the journey they take. The most valuable experience is the one being had in the moment. However, my consideration of the potential problems of NDEs is also validated by it's momentary arrival and so I feel this is a good thing for us to consider. I wouldn't say I am motivated to say this out of fear of the risk. I trust that the Grace of God will guide all of us where we should go. It feels more to me that I am exploring my own beliefs and my interpretation of the beliefs of others in order to move deeper into an understanding of Life.

To clarify, I am not trying to say that people shouldn't have NDEs or shouldn't listen to people who have had them - there is doubtless value in such experiences and interpretations of them (for example the promotion of compassion and awareness). I'm saying that perhaps these people are missing a vital step in the spiritual progression which could have potentially detrimental consequences on themselves and others in the greater scheme of things. I would love to know people's interpretations and feelings around this topic.

I'm unsure if the scientific field has anything to offer this particular point that I bring up here. I'd be very interested in people's opinions and evidence of whether it does or does not.

PS:

I also like the flashlight / warehouse analogy Jen. It feels to me like my own journey is a combination of the flashlight moving around and progressive getting larger while occasionally dipping into realities where the warehouse lights turn on. Though there is always more darkness to illuminate (as far as I see it now). I also agree that those bigger light moments then seem to illuminate aspects of our self within the relativity of our humanity resulting in life challenges and the opportunity to resolve these darker aspects in order to make way for new waves of light experience (presumably this being a never ending process of cycling into ever greater radiances).

PPS:

I haven't experienced the absolute level of reality so in that respect I am in the dark and trusting my intuition as to the teachers that Life has guided me toward.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:34 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:I haven't experienced the absolute level of reality so in that respect I am in the dark and trusting my intuition as to the teachers that Life has guided me toward.


I like Adyashanti too to some degree, granted I prefer Mooji. However, perhaps the reason you haven't experienced it is because it is not attainable while in human form and you're just chasing your tail. :idea:

I love your posts Jack on this board and I love all that you've given me on this forum already. I've gained so much insight from you over the last year or two as you know very well. So, it's ok if I disagree with certain things with you. :) Both of our journeys and experiences are still perfectly valid and all of us on this board who might not see eye to eye are still on this journey together and helping one another, even if we have slightly different perspectives on nuances. I've moved in a different direction as well, but I still come back to that same place of presence time and time again which is the focal point I feel, of our discussions.

But, there is no reason to find one path to be more right than the other. Perhaps you find something threatening in the NDE reports that your own views don't match up to? I don't know. Other than those claiming that NDE reports are not real or insignificant, I've never heard anyone come up with the same issues you are finding about NDE reports. How can anyone, and I mean....anyone..... be misguided when they are simply detailing their own direct experience? You are interpreting these experiences in a certain way that perhaps does not match an image that you have, and it's coming across in the way you are trying to prove seemingly to yourself and others that, there is more to go beyond, that...which NDE'rs have experienced (yet once again, most NDE'rs are not claiming enlightenment). I don't discount that there is a 'No-thing' that 'everything' emerged out of it, but who can possibly know? All knowings directly, require an individuality to experience and to claim the knowings. I think you're dis-regarding that for some reason in our discussions.

While I find some value in some of these teachers, most of them are approaching the subject matter from their own limited interpretations of who and what they are. Even NDE reports are often limited as well because they are subjective understandings often interpreted in human ways. One is not more right than the other. Yet, NDE'rs have a far more expansive view of reality based on the life review and many other factors that likely most of these teachers have not come close to experiencing (to my knowledge). That doesn't make them wrong of course at all. It'just limited. I've already explained my reasoning and won't go into it once again.

But, to re-iterate this important point....To claim transcendence beyond all relativity (higher realms as well), would not be able to be known without an individualized recall of the experiences. Transcendence would be the end of your individual, but not separate existence. There would be no recall of any experience. I think you're attaching yourself to an 'idea', that simply cannot possibly be known. I don't even believe the most advanced Buddhist monks have completely transcended relativity, but merely an interpretation of what 'oneness' or non-existence would feel like based on their own experiences, which is exactly what the quote I posted above is saying, and I'll re-post below. Even an experience of a Void is still......an experience. An experience of no experience....is still....an experience. And any teacher who claims to have transcended all relativity (including higher realms) and then still be able to talk about it, is deluding themselves and others into a while goose hunt that never ends because whether they believe it or not as I said above, it's STILL on the level of individuality.

I don't care about reaching an absolute state personally. I care about living my life right here and now IN THIS body to the best that I can, which is the reason I incarnated here. And that....is where I find the value in NDE's. We are here not to get RID of being human. We are here to BE human.

Your life here in physical form is so temporary. Enjoy it.

Some soul pathways and modes of exploration, especially when venturing into other dimensional states, can be described as being ‘One with everything’, because that is simply a close approximation to the description of the experience in human language.

It is not in fact a literal experience of being One with everything, but a state of consciousness, a state of being that resembles your idea of what it would feel like. A literal experience of being One with everything cannot be achieved as and within a state of soul over spirit.

The soul and spirit would be required to be transcended and have no consciousness left of its Self whatsoever. So then, any experiences the spirit has via the soul journey which resembles being One with everything is purely an individualized interpretation.

It is not possible to experience a literal state of One-ness whilst in physical form, only a fragmented reflection that meets the individual’s current state of comprehension. The same applies in the immediate afterlife.

What is experienced then is the One-ness with your divine spirit, and the bliss attained within your own understanding of the continuum that God is experienced as.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:06 pm

One other very important point that NDE'rs gain is purpose. Not purpose in a physical sense or a human type of purpose, but purpose as to why we choose to experience, why we choose to incarnate. The notion of transcending all relativity, completely defies the entire purpose of why we come here in the first place. Meaning, even if we could potentially transcend all experience, it's merely a human way of looking it at to want to transcend it. I take it that the Spirit view is far far different from what the information I've gained from people who've gained access to their pre-birth planning and soul groups/council of elders, etc. We all are evolving vibrationally, but that's just the natural mechanism of this Energetic process. Expansion and contraction on all levels.

Most of us live thousands upon thousands of lives all across the multi-verse. We don't come here to transcend relativity, but we come here to have a greater understanding of who we are THROUGH relativity. That's the purpose. Relativity is our greatest gift. It's THROUGH the experience of contrast and relationships that help us see ourselves within, that help us learn about our nature as Love. It's why relationships are so valuable. Relationships of all kinds. The notion of transcending this would mean that we would want to come here for one lifetime and kapoosh...that's it. Again, that's a human way of looking at it. We don't come here for one lifetime to not ever come back again. Instead, we come here to explore different angles of an issue, such as facets on a diamond and be able to see what each of those facets (experience wise) feels like. What it feels like to be a separate being, when in actuality, we are not. When in essence, it's this relativity which we come to explore and bathe in, to learn about ourselves through and not only that, we choose multiple lifetimes (again out of choice) because we WANT to come here, in order to grow, not just for ourselves, but to help others grow and to evolve vibrationally for our whole soul groups as well, and for the evolution of the planet as well. It's the appreciation for the experience of that which we appear to be NOT in every single lifetime (which we can't experience un-embodied), that we come here for, which is our greatest gift of not only growth, but joy and exploration.

Transcendence is a human understanding as I take it and a very limited one as it does not grasp who and what we actually are and come here to do.

Spiritual Teachers who talk of transcendence likely have not experienced a life review, a greater understanding of their soul group, or a greater understanding as to why they chose their individual lives pre-birth. None of us could remember that other than through a profound experience of our own. That's why those who speak of transcending are doing so from a very limited understanding of the greater reality.

This is what I've gained from the study and exploration of these experiences. There are not assumptions, but, rather, based on direct insight that I've gained from communicating with numerous people directly and encountering hundreds up hundreds now of NDE/OBE/ALE reports which only confirm this.

The very fact that you have a soul is a proof of the pudding statement that reveals the spirit’s desire to know and be a separate entity of consciousness. The soul journey is the spirit’s way of being one with the continuum that God is experienced as. This is the true state of bliss. This is the true adventure and relationship with God.

For those who insist reality is contrary to the case, it reveals they themselves cannot recollect their soul journey prior to their own physical conception, and the work they are continuously doing in their soul group. The whole purpose of soul groups, of which all are a part, is to perpetuate the gift of free will and choice to manifest your own destiny through your own individual soul journey.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:22 pm

Thanks for that post that was very clear. It's hard for me to put into words why I feel the way I do and why I feel it so strongly. I'll start by saying I don't believe the absolute is some escape from our humanity (as some teachers do seem to). Rather I see transcendence as a way of maximising our humanity and our transdimensional selves. I see us all as the trinity - the human son, the transdimensional father and the transcendent spirit. I do not choose to align with these teachers as a way to avoid my human, but as a way to live my humanity more fully. This is the primary message of Adyashanti and Francis Bennett put forward in their conversation about resurrecting jesus on batgap.

I do not believe experience is possible without some form of attachment. And I agree that individuality is most likely required to experience this transcendent aspect of being. I see my role here in being the relaxing and opening of my attachments in order to enhance my experience of life - not in destroying my attachments. In a relative sense I believe i am my attachments - uniquely and dynamically. In an absolute sense i believe I am beyond attachments. These relative and absolute aspects dancing together in the flow of life - a kind of love making where these two fundamentals cherish one another.

Maybe on some level I do resent these NDErs. Indeed on some level i do, as do I resent many, many things, maybe even every thing if I am being honest. I'm not sure if it is even possible to utterly resolve resentment - it seems to be the shadow by which the expression of life is possible - the resistance that enables life. But in that same regard I feel resentment to the teachers that I am writing here to support. So i don't think it is feeling threatened or resentful that motivates what I am saying here. It may be a judgment of myself. For, not long ago, I refuted the idea of the absolute in favour of blasting myself off into the higher dimensional in search of glory. Perhaps I have not forgiven myself for this and am doing so with these very words.

To answer your point about misguided I tried to make sure I was specific in saying that they were misguided only in their direct on others away from an absolute reality (or at least not directly toward it, having not experienced it). I was not saying they were misguided because they were following their experience, I specifically said I feel it is important that everyone follow their own path and in that regard all experience in the moment is totally valid.

When you say 'who can know?' The answer seems to be those who we trust to be living that experience. I have found a teacher in Francis Bennett as someone I have direct contact with and know personally who I believe is living the dance of the son, father and spirit. That he is aware of all these levels simultaneously and is embracing the dance of God in a very real and tangible way. That he is fully human and fully divine. That he is committed to helping others become this for themselves by assisting them in walking their own journey to the best of his limited ability. I know he has had experiences of higher entities since he was a young boy and understands the potential risks of distraction that can happen within those experiences. I believe he experiences much that he chooses not to discuss publicly out of love for those who may be distracted by his own experiences. I'm wary of ranking spiritual people, but there is an appropraiteness in that too. In that sense, I feel that Francis ranks very highly, while, for me at least, an NDEr has yet to demonstrate to me that they are of that same level. That isn't to say they aren't potentially living and expansive and joyful life and have much to offer others - just that, for me at least, I would rather take on board the words of someone living a more complete picture of the trinity of being than someone living one that is currently lacking one of the fundamental dimensions of it.

I agree that the transcendent isn't about knowing. I believe it is about un-knowing. Surrendering to life by letting go of what is known and embracing the unknown. My current focus is in that release. Right now I feel more at peace in my life than i ever have and I feel strongly that this is just the beginning of a chapter in a book that never ends. Though transcendence is a goal I have set myself and I hope to reach, it is not something I feel I hold onto as strongly as I used to. It's just another mode of experiencing. An enriching mode, but just another mode. I hope to surrender enough to become as that and journey on within my humanity and other selves in fullness. A type of lighter and lighter attachment in being so as to unfurl myself to the never ending mystery of life for the unending glory of god.

I hope that has clarified my position a little more. I know there a lot of people out there talking about higher and highest level of consciousness. I think it's important to remember that none of us have precisely the same perception of these things. Indeed, my own perception seems vastly different to some others than are using the same language. For me, the transcendent is not superior to the relative, but they are equal. They are lovers. Love, compassion and devotion of heart are, for me, as vital as clarity and stillness of mind.

I'm glad we can talk about our differences while maintaining our respect for one another. It's a beautiful thing <3
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:23 pm

I tend to agree with E2B. I don't see how anyone yet living in a physical form can speak with absolute authority on the Absolute or Source Consciousness. Even those with the grandest of NDE experience, as well as those channeled beings offering some of the greatest insights I've ever encountered, relate that there is always ever more to perceive and become. And it makes clear sense if the universe of conscious being is fractal, holographic, and evolutionary in nature. That's a damn big picture. But how could it not be in an Eternity of Being?

While all insight is valuable regardless of source, that internally generated insight, that direct inner connection with one's own true nature, is the genuine philosophers stone.

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