The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:26 pm

I only just saw your second post. I think my previous post addresses much of what you discuss there.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:34 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Maybe on some level I do resent these NDErs. Indeed on some level i do, as do I resent many, many things, maybe even every thing if I am being honest. I'm not sure if it is even possible to utterly resolve resentment - it seems to be the shadow by which the expression of life is possible - the resistance that enables life. But in that same regard I feel resentment to the teachers that I am writing here to support. So i don't think it is feeling threatened or resentful that motivates what I am saying here. It may be a judgment of myself. For, not long ago, I refuted the idea of the absolute in favour of blasting myself off into the higher dimensional in search of glory. Perhaps I have not forgiven myself for this and am doing so with these very words.


Resentment? How cool. Something else to integrate into a greater understanding of life. Where would we be in physical life without useful challenges to test us and to overcome? Why would we want to waste a perfectly good life experience only on ease when challenges offer so much reward in our evolution of consciousness and being?

Enjoy that resentment experience. It won't last forever. Make the best of it. It is a treasure waiting to be clearly seen and included in an ever growing love of life.

WW
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:35 pm

Whoa. This thread is moving so fast it's hard to keep up. It seems I'm about two posts behind.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:06 pm

Jack, I'd suggest you're making an incredible level of assumptions here based on your own biased views bathed in resentment, and have really not thoroughly understood a good portion of NDE's experiences during or after the experience, by this quote below from you. It really shows your lack of understanding and your own judgments.

I feel that Francis ranks very highly, while, for me at least, an NDEr has yet to demonstrate to me that they are of that same level. That isn't to say they aren't potentially living and expansive and joyful life and have much to offer others - just that, for me at least, I would rather take on board the words of someone living a more complete picture of the trinity of being than someone living one that is currently lacking one of the fundamental dimensions of it[


A complete picture? And you can know for a fact, that many of these people who have had NDE's are not living the complete picture? How could you know that unless you've created your own image of what 'living the complete picture' actually is. What exactly IS 'living the complete picture'? Is Anita Moorjani not living 'the complete picture' in your eyes? Is Natalie Sudman's report not a divine enough example of the 'complete picture'? What about Nanci Danison's work after her NDE or Mellen Thomas Benedict's work? Are they not living the complete picture? Of course these are only a few of millions who have had their lives completely changed. These are your own assumptions and nothing more.

Surrendering to life has absolutely nothing to do with transcending relativity. You're mincing words now.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:30 pm

I had a feeling this would happen which is why I was tentative about discussing my view. You seem to be reacting quite badly to your beliefs being challenged E2B. Perhaps it would be better to carry on this conversation at a later time.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:32 pm

I agree about resentment WW. The more I admit it is there and allow it to be the more beautiful it feels. Forgiveness is stunning.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:50 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:I had a feeling this would happen which is why I was tentative about discussing my view. You seem to be reacting quite badly to your beliefs being challenged E2B. Perhaps it would be better to carry on this conversation at a later time.


Trust me....we all have beliefs. You, me and everyone else. And I have absolutely zero qualms with admitting that I don't have all the answers and that a lot of the times, I've limited myself in the past and I still do! But, please spare me the silly comments Jack. It has no reference here what-so-ever and you know that.

I've given you a full thorough explanation in multiple posts which you've continued to ignore as to why the 'Absolute' is an idealistic image created as just a 'thought', since all experience of a perceived absolute would also be on a relative level, since it can be re-called and you have done nothing to counter that perspective of mine, other than to continue to claim that a few teachers that you believe are enlightened claim that this as their experience. Then, you go on to claim that these teachers are living more spiritual/complete lives than NDE'rs and when I respond to tell you to point out that assumption, you tell me my beliefs are being challenged because of that?

That's a very convenient avenue that others have done as well on this board when their OWN beliefs are challenged to back out of a conversation....very Phil like.

So be it.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:53 am

Yes I did choose to ignore your previous posts. This is because I had a feeling it wiuld lead to defensiveness and unpleasant reactions on your part as. I had seen this happen a number of times on a number of posts with a number of people. It isn't something I judge you for - it happens to anyone (very definitely including myself) when the beliefs we hold too tightly become challenged by life. It seems to me that your attack on my character is an attempt to reduce the validity of my opinions in order to strengthen your currently threatened belief system. That you belief system is reacting in this way is a sign of it's own instability and a reason to look within and determine precisely why this is happening within you.

I imagine you will use this post as further fuel for your defensive fires by questioning my motives and continuing to offer evidence that seeks to invalidate my point of view. That is your choice. But you should know that I won't cater to such defensive and rigid beliefs. I am here to discuss my perspectives openly and respectfully with others. If my own view is met with continued closed mindedness and disrespect I will simply point out my side and then leave you in the mess of your own making. I feel that is fair and compassionate under the circumstances.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 07, 2015 5:22 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Yes I did choose to ignore your previous posts. This is because I had a feeling it wiuld lead to defensiveness and unpleasant reactions on your part as. I had seen this happen a number of times on a number of posts with a number of people. It isn't something I judge you for - it happens to anyone (very definitely including myself) when the beliefs we hold too tightly become challenged by life. It seems to me that your attack on my character is an attempt to reduce the validity of my opinions in order to strengthen your currently threatened belief system. That you belief system is reacting in this way is a sign of it's own instability and a reason to look within and determine precisely why this is happening within you.

I imagine you will use this post as further fuel for your defensive fires by questioning my motives and continuing to offer evidence that seeks to invalidate my point of view. That is your choice. But you should know that I won't cater to such defensive and rigid beliefs. I am here to discuss my perspectives openly and respectfully with others. If my own view is met with continued closed mindedness and disrespect I will simply point out my side and then leave you in the mess of your own making. I feel that is fair and compassionate under the circumstances.


Attack on your character? Wow. So, what I said DID strike a chord with you. You have a feeling that it would lead to defensiveness....that's your own belief Jack and you're now asserting that any counter argument is 'defensiveness' because that's what you expected to see from me. You just blatantly said it yourself. You're not looking at yourself here and seeing how your entire point of contention is based on YOUR own beliefs.

I've done nothing, but provide counter points of contention.....completely open to you in this thread by pointing out the flaws of attempting to attain some idealistic 'Absolute State' (and I've presented valid counter points). I don't think you like what I've said. I think you are already pre-disposed to me disagreeing with you because you're expecting to see defensiveness and now you're unlovingly projecting that on to me because I've blatantly called you out for the ridiculous assumption you made by claiming that the spiritual teachers that you follow, live more complete lives than NDE'rs.

You started this entire discussion on your own, by claiming that a few spiritual teachers are more enlightened than NDErs and that NDE'rs are misguided (even by your own definition of misguided) and have done nothing to present your side of the discussion other than to claim your own beliefs in what a few spiritual teachers have claimed.

I know I'm a fiery guy at times. I get very passionate in my responses and there are times where I absolutely have gotten angry in my responses to other posters on this board and there is no question....that is my own issue. I don't question that and have admitted it many times in the past and I will even apologize when I come across unlovingly to another poster. J

ack, I love you man, even if we disagree, but please, stop the finger pointing and look at yourself here. My responses here have been nothing but open to you, nothing but attempting to engage in a back and forth discussion, and nothing based in defensiveness (what exactly is there to defend?) and it is you, yourself, who are expecting this defensiveness from me, based on something you've seen in me, in a previous post (likely I have a feeling from my previous exchange in that thread with Fore) plus you already are pre-disposed to my point of view (based on what I expressed to Fore in that other thread) and now your own beliefs are feeling threatened themselves because you're afraid I will attack your point of contention based on what you believe about me as a person.....and therefore, you are afraid to engage in any further counter discussions because you think I will respond defensively. You are now projecting those pre-disposed beliefs about me from the past on to this very thread when it has nothing to do with this thread. This is all you Jack.

Oddly enough, I did this EXACT same thing with Snowheight in a previous thread a while back. There was something he said to a poster that I didn't like. Later on, in a separate thread, him and I engaged in a discussion, and I projected my own beliefs about Snowheight to him, based on what I had believed of him from his previous back and forth with another poster. I apologized to him and realized that it was only me, myself who was projecting this on to him of my own beliefs.

It's all good.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:12 pm

I see a clear distinction between a 'defensiveness' which is born of an emotional investment in a belief, and defending a perspective which relates to one's understanding born of information, consideration and insight. Both can be present if sufficient emotional investment is added to understanding. Clarity of course, is effected by emotion.

Emotional investments can be threatened. Simple working and evolving perspectives are more likely to be open to greater clarity when additional knowledge is included.

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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:14 pm

This is strange to me. We seem to be having such different interpretations on what is happening here.

I mentioned you attacking my character because it seemed that out of a long post where (from my perspective at least) i presented a balanced and open account of my beliefs. You say i didn't address my points, but from my point of view i did. So I am confused by your posts.

I have the belief at this time that there is an absolute level of reality that goes beyond that discussed by the NDE reports I have read. To me, it seems like you're reiteration of this is coming from a place of defensiveness.

I'm a little tired to play the "you're projecting" "no YOU'RE projecting" game right now. Though I imagine you can see how easy it would be for me to do that - it's a whirlpool I don't really want to jump into!

I do agree that I have my own defensiveness issues here. I don't doubt that for a second and hope I'm not giving the impression otherwise. This conversation is working wonders in battering said defences, which is one reason I'm being a little inflammatory here. I think it's good to be a bit of a dick from time to time to test my own and other people's beliefs. Not to mention that really expressing how we feel does mean saying things that we or others may not want to hear. Being comfortable with doing that is an ongoing journey for me.

In a way I do want to apologise to you. As I like you and consider you a friend and don't want to hurt your feelings. But then, to not challenge one another is to prevent each other from having amazing opportunities to test ourselves and evolve from those tests. So, what is there to apologise for? All i have done is express my opinion. I felt i did it in a way that was respectful of the opinions of yourself and others. Should I apologise if you have not taken it that way? I don't think so. To take that offence is your choice as is any offence I take.

Am I projecting onto you? Almost certainly - I don't think it's possible to avoid that. Am I making assumptions of you and basing my response on that? Almost certainly - that is how we experience in life.

So, it is strange. A strange collection of posts. Though most certainly productive. And I think that's the most important thing. So for that I most sincerely thank you. Getting deep into the strangeness of my own emotional contusions is a tricky business which would not be possible without interactions like this :) :wink:
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:18 pm

Thanks for the response Jack. I do appreciate your openness in all of your posts and glad we could communicate further amicably...or more 'openly' in understanding that is.

I want to make a point here. For well over a year, I was bathed in non-duality teachings with Adyashanti and many others. I interacted with James Swartz through email regularly who is the 'Vedanta dude' and I gained a lot from his teachings to me and also my understandings of teachers like Adyashanti and Mooji and I think all of them point to the very same thing. I think all of the non-dual guys 'get it'. But, the problem is, I find and maybe it's my own belief, that when teachers keep you searching for more, more more, you can never seemingly live and are always doused in a sense of fear that I will never get there, when there....is already here. There are some Vedanta teachings where people keep searching on the spiritual path for decades attempting to gain some sort of trascendent state. It's never enough. There's always more and more and more to go. Your advice of letting go and surrender is exactly what I have been practicing myself lately. But, I don't feel a need to attain a 'goal' with it.

What I've learned from NDE's is that it doesn't matter if we reach a transcendendtal state or whatever. It's not nearly as important as the experience I am having right NOW. Just by being here incarnate is an incredible, powerful, brave, loving thing that we are doing.

It's ok that we differ on this.

I am also sorry if you were hurt by anything I said too in my posta, but I also too don't apologize, because in absolutely no way, what-so-ever, was I attempting to make a personal attack on you to hurt you, but merely attempting to point out, what I perceived as... holes in your argument and I only wanted to debate it further.

Thank you again.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby EnterZenFromThere » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:58 pm

Nice post E2B, I appreciate that. I agree it's fine that we have different views on this.

Maybe we can continue this conversation via PM at some point as I feel I've dragged this topic pretty far from WW's original intention of a discussion of the science of connectedness.

Peace.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:40 pm

EnterZenFromThere wrote:Nice post E2B, I appreciate that. I agree it's fine that we have different views on this.

Maybe we can continue this conversation via PM at some point as I feel I've dragged this topic pretty far from WW's original intention of a discussion of the science of connectedness.

Peace.


Absolutely. I was considering it before actually (PMing you), after the back and forth we were having.

Thank you.
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Re: The Connected Universe - Breakthrough Science

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:09 am

It's still a 'campfire chat' for me, so don't go anywhere.

Zen said: I'm saying that perhaps these people are missing a vital step in the spiritual progression which could have potentially detrimental consequences on themselves and others in the greater scheme of things. I would love to know people's interpretations and feelings around this topic.


Firstly -- saying nde'rs (do this, or that or think or say this or that) is like saying Londoners (do this, or that or think or say this or that). I think it's unfair to lump anyone in like that nde'rs or Londoners :wink:

Given that yes we are having individual experiences, what each will take out of the experience, and indeed what others take out of hearing snippets about the experience will be situational and individual. It cannot in this dimension/level whatever, be otherwise.
(try telling all about living in London to someone who's never been there ---- just see how much will be missed out in focus, and how much will be relative and relevant to the interest of the other person).

So I don't assume that those who have had this experience are 'all one' in the experience, on the topic of the experience, or what we've done or thought about it since.

Secondly, if I learned anything in the light it's that no thing is 'detrimental' it's all just experience from a particular perspective, in a particular combination of awareness, capacity & willingness.

So I don't see any cause for concern. If someone is misled by any other it's their own awareness, capacity & willingness that will be up for change/growth in new experiential understanding. Just light trails of love
energy and globs of stuck fear energy, no permanent harm done, it all unravels eventually.

EnterZenFromThere wrote:
Maybe on some level I do resent these NDErs. Indeed on some level i do, as do I resent many, many things, maybe even every thing if I am being honest. I'm not sure if it is even possible to utterly resolve resentment - it seems to be the shadow by which the expression of life is possible - the resistance that enables life.

My heart ... went ... :shock: :? :( :wink: I do not comprehend. Apart from 'lumping' them into some imagined form that could never be real ... what's to resent?

(forgive me Zen, I had to go check the definition of the word --- verb
feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person).)

I have never felt you bitter or indignant towards me. ... (guess that's my own awareness, capacity & willingness at work :wink: )

I only mention the 'light' stuff in terms of being honest about how/why my awareness embraced stuff that is often counter-intuitive, and definitely misunderstood, in relativity. It's merely a 'citation' of sorts, some stuff I learned at uni, some stuff I learned at my Granny's knee, or in the hard knocks of life, and other stuff I learned in the light. Just is.

It (for me) does not put me or anyone else on some level of enlightenment. It just offers me a wider perspective that I can draw on (if I'm aware, capable & willing) in and about different experiences. Just as a person living in London would have a wider perspective of London.

Anita Moorjani is coming to my town soon, I have no interest in going to see her - in fact I wondered if she doesn't get bored just talking the same thing all the time, or if she's 'moved on' and has found her feet on terra firma again.

I just don't see anything to resent.

But then again I don't tend to make heroes or villains of folks either. We all put our pants on one leg at a time and there aint one of us whose sh*t don't sometimes stink.

Now to go back to the notion of something beyond nde - sure - why not?
What that is I have no idea though. And no one else has been able to explain it to me, so it's not something I concern myself with.

gees, I've got enough to figure out on the earth plane, the empathic plane, the clair conversations and the light stuff. If there's a silence & stillness beyond that ... great! :D not that I'm looking for it, I figure it will find me all in its own good time.


So again, I don't see any 'risks'.

hugs ya buddy
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