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Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:25 am
by Clouded
DavidB wrote:
Clouded wrote:Like I believe that I am holding an apple in my hand and I am going to eat it.
You don't need to believe that in order for it to be true. For example, we don't need to believe that the sun will rise in the morning in order for that to happen. :wink:
Can't the truth be a belief as well? Or are all beliefs lies? And when does it become a truth? When everyone can agree on it, when it is measurable/observable?

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:16 am
by dijmart
Belief is when someone thinks something is reality, true, when they have no absolute verified foundation for their certainty of the truth or realness of something. Another way of defining belief is, it is a mental representation of an attitude positively orientated towards the likelihood of something being true.

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:23 am
by DavidB
Clouded wrote:
DavidB wrote:
Clouded wrote:Like I believe that I am holding an apple in my hand and I am going to eat it.
You don't need to believe that in order for it to be true. For example, we don't need to believe that the sun will rise in the morning in order for that to happen. :wink:
Can't the truth be a belief as well? Or are all beliefs lies? And when does it become a truth? When everyone can agree on it, when it is measurable/observable?
A belief is an idea, a thought form, a conceptualization, a model of reality. A belief is like a map. A map is a topographical model of the landscape, but not ever the landscape itself. A belief is like a photograph. A photograph of a chair for example, is not the actual chair.

Beliefs consist almost entirely of language, and also some visualization, both forms of thought. Thought has no physical characteristics, but instead exhibits characteristics similar to dream like qualities.

There is only one absolute truth, and that is knowing the truth of our unconditioned nature, everything else is relatively true. We can agree on certain relative truths, as for example, the sun rises in the morning, the sky is blue, for every action there is equal opposite reaction, the speed of light, etc etc. :)

Re: Belief

Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:33 pm
by ashley72
A belief is something that a person thinks is true, with or without any solid proof or empirical evidence.

Someone might put forward an argument... "God must existence, otherwise so many people would not believe in a God."

This is because they want to persuade a non believer to believe in God without any empirical evidence.

Because of the lack of empirical evidence they need to find other ways to justify their position, so they use non empirical reasons such as "many" believers must be a good enough reason for others to also believe in the existence of God. Or they might use a call to a higher authority as another way to bolster their position. There are lots of ways to justify or persuade non-believers that offer absolutely no solid proof or empirical evidence to shift their position.

The scientific method uses "experimentation", to measure empirically observable patterns that can explain a cause & effect theory or model. This can bolster a persons argument significantly... Particular if they can demonstrate cause & effect on every occasion the pattern is observed.

If this pattern is say a disease, and they can prevent this disease from occurring by using the principles of cause & effect... this is justification that their is some truth to their claims or at least factual basis in their understanding of the observable pattern.

Following on from what David is saying, there are many levels to a complex system. Take for example a computer system. We have the level of the transistors, resistors, voltage supply... and the level of the lower computer languages, upto the higher level languages, up to the network, the Internet, the user, the social network etc. All these levels have very different cause & effect on that level of the system. It's difficult to look at the system at the higher level to understand how it works at the lower level. It's just too complex. Physical reality is like this, it's extremely complex! It's like an onion, there are many many levels operating.

One thing that is observable is human beings have the ability to create material objects, systems or models that can use the scientific principle of cause and effect to produce outcomes that otherwise wouldn't occur if those creations had not occurred. We wouldn't of landed on the Moon without using the scientific method that is clear. :wink:

Re: Belief

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:11 pm
by vivianamis
If you can perceive it...it's a lie. If you can voice it, grasp it...it's a lie.

All the knowledge of this world no matter how "Spiritual or deep"......only points to the Truth. The Truth can not be perceived with any of our senses. Our senses diffuse and obscure the Truth.

The apple you hold in your hand is a lie. Is it really an apple? How do you know? What makes this item an apple? If you look under a microscope you will see molecules moving around and blinking in and out of existence. Where does the apple go when it is not appearing in our world? What we are witnessing here is the belief in a physical thing. An apple is a manifestation of an idea based on the belief that we need food....based on the belief that we have a body...based on the belief in separation.

When the body disappears....so do all "things".

Re: Belief

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:28 pm
by Webwanderer
vivianamis wrote:If you can perceive it...it's a lie. If you can voice it, grasp it...it's a lie.

The apple you hold in your hand is a lie. Is it really an apple? How do you know? What makes this item an apple? If you look under a microscope you will see molecules moving around and blinking in and out of existence. Where does the apple go when it is not appearing in our world? What we are witnessing here is the belief in a physical thing. An apple is a manifestation of an idea based on the belief that we need food....based on the belief that we have a body...based on the belief in separation.
I see this as only half the truth - and a bit besmirched at that. While apples and all such manifested things may indeed be constructs of greater underlying principles, the appearance of apples and such have a wonderful purpose. To simply dismiss them as lies does this purpose an injustice.

Where would we be without all this world of manifested possibilities? Did we not come to explore this unique environment with all its apples and the wonderful flavors they offer? Should we not honor beauty and adventure in all its forms even while appreciating the structure upon which they are built?

It's a wonderful thing to know the underlying truth of this world we find ourselves in. But it's also incumbent on us to give it its due. Worlds are created for our adventure and exploration. Living their purpose with love and joy is surely more useful than defaming their structure.

WW

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:03 am
by DavidB
Webwanderer wrote:I see this as only half the truth - and a bit besmirched at that.
There are two fundamental aspects to truth. There is the emptiness and there is the fullness. Both are true. From one perspective, this is true, from another perspective, that is true. It doesn't need to be one or the other, it can be both.

Some of us come to truth from emptiness and some of us come to truth through fullness. I came via the emptiness route, while a friend of mine, a Buddhist nun, came to truth through fullness.

Knowing that there is no apple (wisdom), is emptiness. Total acceptance for the apple (love), is fullness.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:13 pm
by vivianamis
Yes, for me it was a strpping away...I am nothing, I know nothing and I have nothing. I have heard of some saying the opposite is also a possibility, but it has not been my experience, nor do I know of any enlightened teachers teaching that path.

The stripping away of beliefs is just the first step. It is the emptying of the mind...the silencing of the mind. After that happen s a separation takes place. The separation from that which we believed to be. At this point there is emptiness. Some call it the dark night of the soul or others it is ego death.

After this period of time a new earth dawns and one comes to the realization that one is everything....yet still no thing. Both simultaneously and neith. What a beautiful contradiction : )

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:31 pm
by Enlightened2B
There is no complete 'ego death' while living/operating in a human body. No matter how enlightened a teacher may be.....they still have an ego. So, that's a bit of a misnomer. If your ego completely dies, you wouldn't be able to operate. Your ego will completely die consider, when you leave your body at death. You wouldn't be able to have preferences for likes/dislikes without an ego. Therefore, you can't get rid of ALL beliefs while incarnate. You CAN on the other hand, see through certain beliefs which cause suffering in your life, or beliefs that you keep you restricted or limited for sure.

I find it highly irrelevant to call the apple non-existent. We are living on the Earth plane for a reason. I agree with WW. From a greater perspective (higher vibrational frequency), the apple is likely more of a 'dream apple'. But, I can't see that from living in a human body, regardless if the interior of the apple is largely 'empty space'. The apple is here for my nourishment and enjoyment, especially when I can crush the apple and make yummy apple sauce! :D

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:21 pm
by vivianamis
As long as we take thought...we will continue to matter.

Re: Belief

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:37 pm
by Enlightened2B
vivianamis wrote:As long as we take thought...we will continue to matter.
That sounds like a very cliche spiritual statement that I find very silly.

But you DO matter whether you believe you do or not. You came here for a reason in this physical body, that you don't remember, nor do I remember why I came here too.

Awakening is a huge step, to realize your thoughts, do not claim ownership to who you actually are. But, that's only part of the picture.

Claiming the non-existence of physical reality is NOT awakening and is often confused in the non-dual community with awakening, but in reality, is just another form of aversion I find. You came here to experience, not to avoid your experience. Not necessarily saying you are, but that statement sounds like it to me.

You came here to grow and learn about who you are and to ultimately be the Love that you are in human form, rather than trying to put physical reality off as 'non existent' or 'thought'.

Re: Belief

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:25 am
by DavidB
vivianamis wrote:After this period of time a new earth dawns and one comes to the realization that one is everything....yet still no thing. Both simultaneously and neith. What a beautiful contradiction : )
“Form is emptiness, emptiness is form" states the Heart Sutra, one of the best known ancient Buddhist texts. The essence of all things is emptiness.”

― Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment

Re: Belief

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:13 pm
by atte72
Isn't this all about beliefs? The Truth can only be known. As long as it is not directly known, the Truth is a belief for us. In this forum, we share that belief.
Life seems to be a journey and our beliefs guide us in that journey. But when we end up believing that all our beliefs are lies and only the Truth is true, what does our journey become?
A journey where we realize there is no journey? So why to walk, to work, to talk, why to wander in life, trying to get sophisticated maps, in order not to get lost, if this is just illusion? If this journey never began, why can't we just wake up from this dream/journey and simply be at peace? I always end such lists of questions with this last question. But, at the end if the day, here I am, still trapped in the story of me (like Tolle calls it) even though my beliefs tell me this is not who I am...
In A course in Miracle (I saw it is still mentionned in this forum) it is said that it all started with one false belief: that we (but we were One... oh, this is hard :P) could be separated from the Oneness. So the dream/journey began. Now is it possible that, since a false belief brought us to illusion, another belief, opposite to that one, can bring us back to the Truth?
So life would be... to find the correct belief, which has the function to be the key to the Truth.
Does it sound like another lie? :( (I am kidding now... in this journey, thank God we can laugh about the journey itself! :))

Re: Belief

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:20 am
by vivianamis
Enlightened2B wrote:
vivianamis wrote:As long as we take thought...we will continue to matter.
That sounds like a very cliche spiritual statement that I find very silly.

But you DO matter whether you believe you do or not. You came here for a reason in this physical body, that you don't remember, nor do I remember why I came here too.

Awakening is a huge step, to realize your thoughts, do not claim ownership to who you actually are. But, that's only part of the picture.

Claiming the non-existence of physical reality is NOT awakening and is often confused in the non-dual community with awakening, but in reality, is just another form of aversion I find. You came here to experience, not to avoid your experience. Not necessarily saying you are, but that statement sounds like it to me.

You came here to grow and learn about who you are and to ultimately be the Love that you are in human form, rather than trying to put physical reality off as 'non existent' or 'thought'.
We are not here to learn and grow..nor do we have any purpose other than the one we give ourselves. That however does not mean life is not worth living...by all means...live it. But why does life need a cause or reason? Is life not enough?

Re: Belief

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:50 am
by Enlightened2B
vivianamis wrote:We are not here to learn and grow..nor do we have any purpose other than the one we give ourselves.
Well......I guess that's where we'll just have to agree to disagree :D
That however does not mean life is not worth living...by all means...live it. But why does life need a cause or reason? Is life not enough?
Depends which context you are referring to. To me, there is very much a cause and a reason for life in physical form. It might not be obvious from our limited human perspectives, but it's there.

I just finished reading "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton. Lot of information there which I would very much recommend to anyone interested in re-incarnation (in the non-traditional sense) and such about why we are here and how we are here to learn and grow.