Belief

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Re: Belief

Postby vivianamis » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:12 pm

I think we would like to believe that there is a reason or cause for life. It kind of takes the "edge" off of life and suffering. We would like to think that things happen for a reason and create beliefs, ideas and dogmas around these ideas and never truly experience the beauty of being free from these limiting beliefs. To believe there is a reason and cause...pacifies us for we are still trying to grasp with our minds that which is beyond mind. The mind wants to know, but instead of asking why..we could ask how and open up to different perspective....a perspective that could free us completely from suffering.

I used to believe in re-incarnation...but in "Oneness" and there only being One Spirit, One Love and/or One Life...it does not make much sense. Who or what is re-incarnating?

Do you see what I mean?

I see life (God, Love, Spirit) as simply that which gives of itself. Not because anyone deserves it or needs it, but simply because that is what Life (God, Love, Spirit) does.

Please don't take offence...just sharing my perspective : )
"To know the Truth, you have to be out of your mind"
User avatar
vivianamis
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:47 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:39 pm

Let me re-iterate. Re-incarnation is no longer a belief of mine either. I'm not talking about silly beliefs based on religion or other mis guided philosophical belief systems such as Vedanta. I'm talking about hard core evidence.

I'm talking about countless reports of evidence in near death experiences, out of body experiences, and countless life between life and past life regression cases from thousands of past life regressionists. Not to mention my OWN past life regression last week which confirmed quite a lot for me (which I am still integrating). To me, it's not even a question anymore. This is hard wired evidence that many people dismiss because it doesn't match up with non-duality teachings. Whether you want to actually believe in it or not, is irrelevant and a whole different matter. I know this subject is not well taken on this board and I don't want to get too much into this because even I, find it a distraction at times.

Oneness and re-incarnation in no way contradict each other and actually make a whole lot of sense to me as they go directly together. Everything is One at its core, but we are here for experience and growth and learning as unique conscious aspects of source itself and unfortunately, this gets widely distorted into people convincing themselves that "nothing is really happening" which is such a large mis-understanding. The non-duality teachings unfortunately tend to simplify this into a very narrow scope based on a very limited human interpretation of their own experience. In some aspects, it's helpful not to get too caught up with it, but in other aspects, it's quite limiting.

In addition, non-duality teachings don't address healing or any other emotional or physical level of disease. I'm someone who had/has crohns disease, chronic fatigue and a whole slew of other physical ailments. Where does non-duality come in to help me with this? Just to accept that my disease just IS without a further understanding through the intellect? Sorry, but that's more a form of denial in seeing the intricate cause and effect at every level of Being and seeing the greater purpose operating at a larger scale. Not to mention that a good portion of the gurus themselves, were incredibly unhealthy including Ramana Maharshi and Sri Nisargadatta and many referred to their own bodies as 'sacks of meat' which I always find amusing.

The ultimate message is the same. I AM that I AM. Surrender, letting go and allowance to me are the path that I am right now. But, there's a lot to be gained from a broader scope than simply what we might perceive from our limited human understandings.

Here's a quote from a man I am friendly with through face book who writes a blog on non-duality called 'The Conscious Process', but also he had his own NDE which changed his entire outlook. This quote resonates highly with me.

There is a valid recognition that, at the ultimate level, nothing happens. That is not really our concern while we are here, appearing and engaged in this realm or vibrational frequency, however. Rather, our job here is to directly realize that love is all that matters, and then to embody the implications of that recognition in our conduct and relationships. In the end, none of our fine notions about emptiness, the self/no-self paradox, and the fate of our daydreams will survive. Only Love is real, and that is the “lesson” we must come to real-ize in this human incarnation. The rest will unfold naturally.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Belief

Postby vivianamis » Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:38 am

Well....LOL

First of all, thank you for having this conversation with me. I do enjoy it very much and hope you get something out of it too : )

I too have had my fair share in mystical, obe, visions, past life memories, miracles and mediumship experiences. I do enjoy sharing these experiences, as they were a part of my journey. But! how many of these experiences are really core hard evidence?

If I am the creator of my experiences, which I do believe I am, then who is to say that all of these things were not created by me? Yes, I did access information I did not know prior and I did find validation that these things were "real". But once I found the Truth...they all lost their meaning. Now I smile at these experiences and understand why we are not to focus on these things. They become a hinderance rather than a stepping stone to realizing our real Self.

That does not mean they are bad or that we are to deny them, but maybe see them as pointers to seek beyond the appearance of these happenings.
"To know the Truth, you have to be out of your mind"
User avatar
vivianamis
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:47 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:34 am

I appreciate the conversation too :D

Even if we say 'we found the truth' and we think we can laugh at these other experiences as if we know better than them, in reality, the truth we found, as profound as it is, is still ultimately limited by our own human limitations/beliefs/interpretation of what we are actually experiencing. Saying the world is a dream and that all of these experiences are part of the dream, (or something of the like) might be true from a much higher perspective, but who's actually had that perspective while incarnate? Not many. I find this is used in neo-advaita as a defensive mechanism by some people in order to avoid facing reality. It can often be a mis-understanding based on a limited human interpretation of a perceived experience of 'Oneness" when it might ultimately be a strong experience of connection with our Higher Self (Over Soul, etc) more than anything else. We can't see the greater picture from this level. We can only delve further within ourselves by being as authentic as possible.

vivianamis wrote:Now I smile at these experiences and understand why we are not to focus on these things. They become a hinderance rather than a stepping stone to realizing our real Self.


They only become a hindrance if we see them as a hindrance or if we cling to them or attach to them like anything else or cling to concepts. Attaching to anything can become a hindrance. It's all based on our own perception just like anything else. As a former atheist, I've had a really good look at a good portion of these experiences, interacted with many people who have had NDE's and life between life regressions and to me, there's very little doubt anymore.

I don't find them to be a hindrance at all and sorry to hear that you do find them to be so and I'd love to know why you feel that way? I find them to bring a bright light of clarity to my own perspective to broaden the strokes of why I am here as long as I don't cling too much to them conceptually. Ironically, since we are talking about beliefs, I find the ultimate belief to be that "re-incarnation is NOT the case".

But! how many of these experiences are really core hard evidence?


My own experience last week was evidence for me in itself, with the images I experienced of a past life. Evidence is subjective to the perception of the individual. I honestly think that something will be deemed as evidence or non-evidence, based on our own prior belief systems which often color our research.

Once I started researching all of this stuff myself, with a thorough unbiased approach, I realized the commonalities of the experiences were simply un-deniable anymore. That's where the evidence is. There are millions of these cases from all different varieties of spiritual experiences, all different parts of the world, that all center around the same common theme/s with each one and are incredibly consistent with each other.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Belief

Postby dijmart » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:27 am

Here's the thingy, it's all us, all of it! The "one" that divided itself into the "many". To know itself, to feel itself, to experience itself. When one of the "many", finds its way back from ego to oneness/source, how long will it stay? Only as long as it can "feel" itself as "oneness" and that's only possible as a seperate self. When that "feeling" of oneness leaves, because all opposites are gone, we will start all over again. What if we cycle throughout eternity from oneness, to the many and back to oneness... over and over and over again? So, in that sense, my view of course, you're both correct.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
User avatar
dijmart
 
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:40 pm

I think the purpose of the cycling and the purpose of separation, is simply to awaken to who we are through every possible physical/human scenario. We are here to realize who we are and Be that realization in our interactions and relationships. Growth and evolution come from the vibrational changes within each of us as our vibration raises the more we become aligned and intuned with our nature as Love....aka....acceptance, allowance and surrender.

We awaken by recognizing Love in every possible situation, whether we are living a care free life as a hermit in the woods or if we are a bomb victim and lose limbs. It's still about connecting to that inner place we call 'home' inside of each of us. Authenticity with ourselves is the only true place to start.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Belief

Postby vivianamis » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:02 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:We awaken by recognizing Love in every possible situation, whether we are living a care free life as a hermit in the woods or if we are a bomb victim and lose limbs. It's still about connecting to that inner place we call 'home' inside of each of us. Authenticity with ourselves is the only true place to start.


That too is a belief....
"To know the Truth, you have to be out of your mind"
User avatar
vivianamis
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:47 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:28 pm

vivianamis wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:We awaken by recognizing Love in every possible situation, whether we are living a care free life as a hermit in the woods or if we are a bomb victim and lose limbs. It's still about connecting to that inner place we call 'home' inside of each of us. Authenticity with ourselves is the only true place to start.


That too is a belief....


Is it? how so? I'm describing my own experience in the awakening process. Unless you'd like to call my actual experience a belief :D

But, I would like to know.....What about that quote by me, is a belief in your eyes? Can you clarify further how and why you see it as a belief?

Is there something about authenticity that scares you or that you don't agree with?

I'd love to hear your own perspective.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Belief

Postby vivianamis » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:18 pm

Every experience is temporal (it has a beginning and an end), yet the "real" is constant..never changing...undisturbed..unborn...everlasting...without beginning nor end. No experience can therefore be "real" but only point to the "real".

So too with beliefs...beliefs are based on ideas and concepts. Any explanation (even the best) can only point to the Truth...it can never be the Truth....I believe : )

If the real could be experienced...it would not be the real. If the Truth can be grasped by mind...it is not the Truth. We can only know the real/Truth...by being "it", which closes the gap between you and me and God: Oneness
"To know the Truth, you have to be out of your mind"
User avatar
vivianamis
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:47 pm
Location: Tampa, Florida

Re: Belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:58 pm

Well sure, everything we talk about is colored and interpreted through some level of belief and that includes the greatest spiritual sages. There is not a single aspect of human life that isn't at least somewhat colored by a belief system. Everything I say, everything you say and everything everyone of us says, is filtered through some level of belief and that includes your OWN belief that my post was a belief. :D Do you see how it works?

That's just part of the human experience. At the same time, if you can't appreciate a message from someone or someone else's experience, and are claiming that someone's experience is ultimately not real, potentially means we might have fallen into a nihilistic trap.

Taking the position of the absolute/divine, when you claim that 'experiences are not ultimately real', is something that none of us can possibly know, from our limited human views. I find that to be a non-dual cop out for people who are too afraid to face their own experiences.

We are not here to omit our experience and to disregard it, and to pretend that nothing is real. We are here to bring God/Love INTO the human experience, which includes the faults, the flaws, the mistakes, the misperceptions, the misinterpretations, that all come along with BE-ing human. Learning to love all of that and embrace it, is what it means to truly bring God into the experience I find and actually live a human life. That's where true growth comes in. Non-duality I am learning simply means that every part of our experience is US which includes the Light and the Dark. All of our experience is US, and none of it is separate. Loving every aspect of our experience means we shine the light on the areas we don't want to look and hold those experiences in our arms by allowing them to be as they are and also shine the light on the areas we do want to look at it.

Omitting our personal experiences as unreal, is just creating more separation believe it or not, which means we are likely avoiding facing our own experience and creating more division. We are not JUST the Divine. We are the divine BE-ing.....a human being, which means all aspects of humanness are here for us to embrace.
Enlightened2B
 
Posts: 1885
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Belief

Postby smiileyjen101 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:23 pm

vivianamis wrote:
If you can perceive it...it's a lie. If you can voice it, grasp it...it's a lie.

By this logic, this statement must be a lie :wink:
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
User avatar
smiileyjen101
 
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: Belief

Postby snowheight » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:40 pm

smiileyjen101 wrote:
vivianamis wrote:
If you can perceive it...it's a lie. If you can voice it, grasp it...it's a lie.

By this logic, this statement must be a lie :wink:


Only if the thought process follows the self-referential structure of the statement.

This is both quite ironic, and also sort of a litmus test. :wink:
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Belief

Postby ashley72 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:10 pm

Bill,

I'm not really following why perceiving self identity is deemed a lie, but somehow perceiving a selfless state would supposedly be closer to the truth?

Let's consider this...

Human beings are a system which functions entirely through self regulatory processes. Everything from sweating to maintaining body temperature of 37 deg, to cognitive processes which lead to panic or greed. Our nervous system couldn't function in this way without cyclic cause-and-effect (governed by self reference). In other words, processes are cyclic in nature, the output can feedback into the input.

Even "perception" is governed by cyclic regulation of cause and effect. Our senses, such as eyes are transducers which convert one form of signal energy to another form of signal energy. In other words, patterns of light signals get transformed into neuronal signals. These neuronal signals are then processed in a tangled hierarchical fashion (no clearly defined highest or lowest level) by different parts of the brain... which is subject to cyclic chains of cause-and-effect within the human nervous system.

You can also think of light signals as information. So we can then talk about information entropy. When the light information is converted by the eye (transducer) into neuronal signals, the eye cannot increase the information entropy of source. In other words it can't increase the amount of uncertainty.

An example would be the source message "aaaaaaaa" couldn't be converted to "adfrmzhp" a message with higher entropy (greater uncertainty). Or another way to think about it, the number of microstates (configurations) available at source cannot be increased by the transducer.

How does it all become cyclic? Take for example a person speaking and creating sound waves, vibrating air-waves. A microphone (transducer) can convert those vibrating air-wave signals into electromagnetic waves which can be amplified through a speaker (transducer) and converted back to vibrating air-waves. However, if the speaker is put next to the microphone, those vibrating air-waves start feeding the output signal directly back into the input signal causing an increase in the initial signal size recursively. This causes a very low initial vibration to become very violent as it recursively cycles getting bigger and bigger!

In a way, this is how our own self identity works. Light signals & sound signals all get transduced by our senses, eyes, ears, etc. These signals are regulated in a cyclic fashion within our nervous system or brain. These undergo both positive & negative feedback loops constantly or playing the game of self organization.

i.e. a communication produces further communications and hence any communication system (social system) can reproduce itself as long as there is dynamic communication.
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Belief

Postby randomguy » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:00 pm

When there is no thinking going on, no explanation observed, no belief entertained, there I still am. Interesting that.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho
randomguy
 
Posts: 923
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Belief

Postby ashley72 » Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:54 pm

That's because your an integrated system. You have billions of neurons in your brain with trillions of connections all integrated to your senses (transducers) with the environment. Can't you recognized your a communication system with extraordinary integration with the environment? ... That's basically why your conscious of things in the environment. Belief is just a by-product of the integration.
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest