Creating change....from within

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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby DavidB » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:12 am

Onceler wrote:The older I get, the less desire I have to give anyone advice or say what they should do.


I generally don't give advice unless asked. And even then I'm cautious. I've made considerable efforts in the past to help people, thinking I was doing a great job :roll: , only to find that they didn't take any of my advice and they didn't change. Well, at least I learned my lesson. I also don't enjoy that feeling I get when I feel all preachy, pontifying and philosophizing. Something about that makes me uncomfortable.

Onceler wrote:We just don't know another's context, path, etc....this goes for all of us perhaps, the doers and the those just being.


That is so true, and one of the reasons why we ought not judge. I don't even know my own context and path, let alone somebody else. I have only a tiny slither of perception and have absolutely no idea what the universe is doing, I don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow. I have some ideas, but that's all.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby smiileyjen101 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:11 am

Andy said: I guess I was reacting to this suggestion to "respond..." by saying that it's hard to know what another's response should be. And that was my overall response to the original post -- maybe navel-staring is the "right" response for a given individual.


Again, it wasn't a even a suggestion Andy, it is a fact of 'if->-then', natural cause & effect.

Navel gazing in and of itself does not create change, ignoring reality does not create change - becoming clear and authentic may involve navel gazing > correcting previous assumptions (on many levels) and letting the love and compassion flow into action/s, getting over our uncomfortable sensations, or it may just be a slap around the head from reality waking us up.

Imagine if Mandela had his realisations of what freedom really is and came out of his prison and did nothing?
Imagine if Ghandi hit upon the value of non violent resistance and stayed home contemplating what it might bring about if someone else had the courage / willingness to enact it, or deciding he didn't care enough, or had too much on his plate to enact it?

What if we all give in to the 'uncomfortable' feelings of fear and ego?

E2B's friend has had a slap around the head with reality.
Her reaction (imho) is totally understandable.
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:50 am

Here's are two paragraphs on what Eckhart calls "frequency holders"-

“In past ages, they would probably have been called contemplatives. There is no place for them, it seems, in our contemporary civilization. On the arising new earth, however, their role is just as vital as that of the creators, the doers, the reformers. Their function is to anchor the frequency of the new consciousness on the planet. I call them frequency-holders. They are here to generate consciousness through the activities of daily life, through their interactions as well as through ‘just being.’

“In this way, they endow the seemingly insignificant with profound meaning. Their task is to bring spacious stillness into this world by being absolutely present in whatever they do. There is consciousness and therefore quality in what they do, even the simplest task. Their purpose is to do everything in a sacred manner. As each human being is an integral part of the collective human consciousness, they affect the world much more deeply than is visible on the surface of their lives.”
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Sighclone » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:19 pm

Jen -
Yup, a big slap on the head, for sure. And I imagine if I or anyone else were in a refugee camp, or even in the proximity, that navel-gazing might feel less useful to the situation. I guess that my fundamental point was about her judgment that navel-gazing is wrong for everybody, that everybody needs to wake up and help the refugees now is a very broad, and presumptuous statement. Perfectly understandable given her location, but perhaps went to the individual conflict between two people as much as anything... and it had a bit of a sanctimonious ring about it, too...something that is always offensive to me.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby CaiHong » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:32 pm

I also found your friends reaction sanctimonious and didn't sit well with me, I started to have reactive thoughts such as the majority of people would think her natural healing" pursuits an indulgence and that she would be more useful working in the established medical society, lobbying against the food industries, campaigning for change, people to have healthier diets. I digress, I know that is not the point but my feathers were ruffled, it hit a nerve.

I rarely listen to the news, the world is illogical.

I do know for a fact since I have started on the journey of recovery and awakening I am a much more useful and better citizen in all aspects of my life. I feel blessed and I am grateful for what I have, although some people may think I don't have than much materially at all.

One last note on your friend, how much of a healer can she be if she ignores the spirit?

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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Sighclone » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:02 am

One last note on your friend, how much of a healer can she be if she ignores the spirit?


....now there's a good point .....!!

Andy
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:44 am

CaiHong wrote:One last note on your friend, how much of a healer can she be if she ignores the spirit?


I don't think she ignores the spirit completely at all. I think that's a big part of her work. I think any health professional who does ignore the energetic spiritual aspect, or who strictly operates out of the physical (outside of a trauma surgeon and the like, etc) is missing the point in treating chronic illness.

However, my friend is a naturopathic doctor and master herbalist who specializes in homeopathy. That's her specialty. I don't know much about homeopathy, but I believe there is a large energetic component, therefore spiritual component.

What she does ignore is the stuff we talk about on this board, the inner spiritual 'work'. She has a lot of her own issues that she has not worked through which she's expressed to me in the past, which I still find very odd, considering she's a natural doctor. She knows it's there, but she's scared to go within herself. It's blatantly obvious to me, and I feel her completely and empathize because I've been the same way for so long. So she told me that she constantly runs around the world enveloping herself in her work, to avoid facing a lot of her own issues. She has PTSD and many other issues sexually stemming from childhood rape. She told me that she hasn't fully come to terms with this stuff and I think it's a HUGE reason why she reacted the way she did when I told her about my current path of 'going within'. I said this in my first post that it seems 'threatening' to someone, when you talk about going within, because many of us are so aversed to the idea, since many of us are afraid to face who we truly are, which means facing fear, that we will do anything on the outside, to avoid facing those fears. That was the initial point of my post. Not to say that we shouldn't enact change on the outside...which unfortunately got mis-interpreted in this thread.

She made a large amount of assumptions that anyone who is delving into themselves is essentially turning their back on the world, which is so far from the truth. That's not to say that some within the spiritual movement delude themselves into thinking that 'no world actually exists' and by that sentiment, shut out the rest of the world. But, some of us are doing an incredible amount on our own and doing the best we can from where we are. Just because we don't share what we do, does not mean, we turn our backs on the world.

I finally decided that I wanted to heal on all levels and come to full authenticity within myself, so that I can actually help others within my own spiritual/holistic volunteer/business practice. That's my goal right now. I never once said that authenticity means turning your back on the world. I'm not sure why it was seemingly interpreted that way in this thread by certain people.

Regardless, if you're navel gazing because you truly give enough of a shit about finding out who you truly are.....then DO IT! Devote your life to it. The only way for me to live now is authentically. If you can't navel gaze because you're not in the position to do it, then don't do it. If you can make change on the outside, then do it.

But, if you're bashing the people who navel gaze because you're too afraid to do it yourself....a whole different animal. And THAT, is where I energetically felt where my friend was coming from.
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Onceler » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:07 am

Well articulated post, enlightened2b. I have to agree.
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:10 am

Nice EN2B, you write so well! I wasn't gifted in that area... :lol:

As far as health professionals...I work at a hospital and unfortunately it's become big business, all about getting them in and out. I'm a nurse home care coordinator and do rounds with all disciplines every morning on every pt and it's sad when you hear all the complaining nurses do about their "needy" patients. It's pretty disgusting. Managers want the beds, so push for doctors to get patients out the door. FYI- most people don't know this, but insurance companies mainly pay a flat rate for diagnosis's, so once your admitted in-patient they (hospital) have there money. If you stay long, hospital is losing money...hence why they want you out the door. That's where I come in, home care get's referred on many people who weren't ready to leave the hospital, but were discharged anyways.
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby Enlightened2B » Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:32 pm

dijmart wrote:Nice EN2B, you write so well! I wasn't gifted in that area... :lol:


Thanks Di and Onceler :). I feel a bit 'defensive' in this thread in particular because I hate when my message gets mis interpreted and maybe that's something I need to learn to let go of.

As far as health professionals...I work at a hospital and unfortunately it's become big business, all about getting them in and out. I'm a nurse home care coordinator and do rounds with all disciplines every morning on every pt and it's sad when you hear all the complaining nurses do about their "needy" patients. It's pretty disgusting. Managers want the beds, so push for doctors to get patients out the door. FYI- most people don't know this, but insurance companies mainly pay a flat rate for diagnosis's, so once your admitted in-patient they (hospital) have there money. If you stay long, hospital is losing money...hence why they want you out the door. That's where I come in, home care get's referred on many people who weren't ready to leave the hospital, but were discharged anyways.


Yes, absolutely. I've heard this as well. They call them 'outliers'. I'm a medical coder for inpatient medical stays, so I see a lot of this stuff in the charts and in the hospital, when I used to work on site and have had to have a greater understanding of the hospital admission and discharge process in regards to care coordinators and such. We've learned about hospital stays and how they affect the billing cycle and such and it's a process, but sometimes, a very sad one I feel as you say and it's ALL a business and it all comes back to money.
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby CaiHong » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:25 am

Nicely articulated post EB,
I totally agree with your position, pity your friend is not at a place where she can listen to you. Two things came to mind after reading your post, "physician heal thyself" and a Monty Python song, "I am so worried about".

It can't be stressed enought the impact we have on our little sphere of influence around us, the small acts of kindness that can be practiced throughout the day with awareness. Engaging fully in your work.
I never fully understood the saying "God is in the details", until lately.

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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:44 am

Andy said" I guess that my fundamental point was about her judgment that navel-gazing is wrong for everybody, that everybody needs to wake up and help the refugees now is a very broad, and presumptuous statement. Perfectly understandable given her location, but perhaps went to the individual conflict between two people as much as anything... and it had a bit of a sanctimonious ring about it, too...something that is always offensive to me.


This is kinda so funny, us all interpreting the reportage of something someone else felt / shared in a moment & through our own parameters of awareness translating what it means, for us.

I didn't see / interpret her frustration as a statement that navel gazing is wrong for everybody, only not the best response to the situation at hand, and, I agree with her on that for all the reasons I've mentioned before that may or may not have been factored into other interpretations of it, re avoidance etc

E2B said: I feel a bit 'defensive' in this thread in particular because I hate when my message gets mis interpreted and maybe that's something I need to learn to let go of.

...or get comfortable with E2B :wink:

Misinterpretations happen all the time. It just is.

The whole thing reminds me of a poster I used have on the back of my toilet door, that puzzled everyone so much I had to take it down to alleviate the queue outside :wink:

I know that
you believe that
you understood what you think
I said,
but I am not sure that
you realize that what you heard
is not what I meant.
- Robert McCloskey
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby DavidB » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:27 am

I know you believe you understood what you think I said,

but,

I'm not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.

Is this easier?

It can be very frustrating when people think they understood what you meant but don't realize that they didn't. :wink:

PS: I might put that on my toilet door. Thanks Jen. And I have three toilets, so no worries about waiting. :D
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:18 am

Even that can have many 'interpretations' :lol:

It was only a problem in a 'party central' one toilet abode :wink:

It can be very frustrating when people think they understood what you meant but don't realize that they didn't. :wink:


At best we are interpreting another's experience, not necessarily even accurately experiencing another's interpretation of it.

I do try to leave it open and find it helpful to follow the notion that - something happened - this is what happened/ I interpreted / experienced for me - how did you interpret / experience it? and consider all possibilities are equally valid and viable.

- hence why I could appreciate E2B's friend's frustration and understand her culture/reality shock, as well as E2B's discomfort.

I went back to the UK in the middle of the Cold War from relatively isolated/ignorant Australia where we thought all was well in the world, so I also appreciate the whack in the face she's experiencing and how those at home are not even remotely 'on the same page'.

It wasn't contemplation or frequency holding that stopped the nuclear weapon proliferation & brought about disarmament and the relative reconciliation between those countries, it was action from the people of all those countries. It was people calling out the insanity. It was waking people up from the false dream that they provided 'security' and taking away power from those who abused it.

Although we're still in many ways doing the same thing re violence & expecting a different outcome & traded one set of weapons for others, including promoting blind spirituality & self interested materialism.

and you can misinterpret that however you like, I'm pretty sure E2B's friend would 'get it'. :lol:
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Re: Creating change....from within

Postby dijmart » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:26 am

I didn't see / interpret her frustration as a statement that navel gazing is wrong for everybody, only not the best response to the situation at hand


Actually, I think he said, that she said, navel gazing is selfish, narcisstic and bullshit.
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