I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby 3dom » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 pm

Hi EM

(Sorry but this isa long post - and it has been edited slightly to hopefully avoid too much confusion)

As ET defines it suffering is essentially the 'inability to accept what is'. So the problem therefore is not with what is but our interpretation of it. Therefore whenever we encounter an object, a person or an event in life we will have judgments about them that have been largely conditioned in us by all sorts of external factors including our own memories and life experiences. It is these judgments that are problematic because they are usually false. You need therefore to see beyond these judgmental interpretations and to simply accept the object, person or event within the field of perception as it is without attributing to them any values etc. that might for example qualify them as being beautiful or ugly, right or wrong or even good or evil etc. This very acceptance is part of the letting go process so you have nothing to lose from going into it other than the chains that are keeping you imprisoned in that mental hell. The fact that you are seeking advice on this forum to get some relief suggests to me you are enduring a form of suffering - the voices in your head are perhaps an extreme form of self-chatter but that is a universal symptom of the dysfunction or madness that infects us all and it can be so tormenting.

That aside there is also the issue of psychological time that I can't help but notice coming up a least of couple of times in your posts. The mind is inextricably linked to psychological time in terms of the past and the future which in turn equates with the unconscious state. If you are therefore being weighed down by thoughts and feelings of guilt and shame - then it will have its sure source in a pre-occupation with the past and if it is anxiety it will be related to goals and aspirations in the future. Some Christian once wrote 'we are crucified between two thieves - the fear of the past and the fear of the future' - F.E.A.R someone else says is an acronym for "False Evidence appearing Real" . It is fear that motivates the Ego because it quite simply dreads self anihilation so it by necessity as a persona will with the discursive nature of the mind look at the past and the future as ways to preserve and justify its self-existence. So with this understanding we know that as surely as the mind can not countenance or exist in conscious Awareness neither can it have any a place in the present-moment. As ET puts it the mind is always looking for the next moment and then the one after that etc. This then accounts for the experience of boredom on your part - because the mind can only consider stillness and silence as a waste of time - it wants to move as soon as possible to the next thing. Boredom means therefore that the mind has not been stilled - external factors for you like the environment or even the body may be stilled but the mind is still actively busy doing what it does best. So long as you remain engaged with the contents of your mind, you will remain in psychological time and therefore unconsciousness. The answer then is begin with no-mind in the sense that you do not engage (or as Key Master states it better get ''entangled') with the thoughts that arise from unconsciousness. Doing this simultaneously resolves the problem of psychological time and the energies that were previously invested in fear, regret, hatred and angst etc. are re-integrated positively into consciousness.

Another thing about psychological time is that yes the egoic mind will often see the future in a salvific way. So that it is hopes at some point in the future it will in achieving its goals get that state of happiness, contentment and peace. But we know why that isn't going to happen right? Salvation is a matter rather of the present moment - its not something we will get into or more of today, tomorrow or whatever - the simplicity and beauty of it is that this is something that can only be done in the present-moment. There is no time nor place, quality nor quantity to be prepared or met in the experience - in fact there is nothing be done. The present moment is simply BEING in the moment. No Doing, no thinking - but just BEing.

Someone here posted a reply mentioning an evil entity perhaps inside you that accounts for your aversion to ET and perhaps the dreams and voices you have been experiencing more recently. I certainly think based on my own experience that is the egoic-mind trying to fight back and it will do so more intensely as you enter into more and more into consciousness. It's a tricky illegitimate child that will find all sorts of ways to keep itself alive even to the point (as has been the experience of some people) where it is even presented as enlightenment itself. So you should in fact be very glad this is happening firstly because it confirms you are heading in the right direction and hey it is perfectly normal in the experience of some including my own. (So sorry for all the pronouns and oughts - I hope you can see that I am simply using language to make the point as directly and simply as I can even though the subject Being as opposed to doing is by its very nature outside the scope of words and conceptualising).

The other thing that might help you EM is the relationship between the mind and body as ET sees it and which I resonate with tremendously although I come from a different tradition with its distinct labels etc. To stick with ET's descriptions however - the body hosts emotions which are or were mirroring the mind thoughts. I say were because sometimes the mind and body are in conflict over what the mind wants or desires to do as opposed to what the emotions are actually saying. Call it Cognitive Dissonance - it is nevertheless part of the overall dysfunction of the ego. When we view how the ego is energised by negativity then whether it is mental or physiological the outcome is the same in the head as it is in the body. Only worse because the fragmentation can be so extreme and profound that this energy in the body becomes an entity of its own. This ET calls the pain body which is not unlike what St Paul describes as "sin in the flesh" or the "Old man of flesh" that is warring with his members including the "inner man". Whatever label we assign to this entity which may include demonic or evil - it is not an external supernatural being - but simply a part of your fragmented self. The solution to the pain body is nevertheless the same as the that for the mental thoughts although it can only survive by remaining hidden. Awareness - in the present moment - or just Being has the peculiar power firstly of casting its light on the pain body and then transmuting the energy that gives it existence into pure consciousness. The term transmute means to transform upwards - so from a base state to something higher and more precious. As a term that describes the dissolution of the incarnate ego it is extremely fitting particularly in the context of the unifying nature of non-dualism as against the separative and divisive nature of dualism. The outcome of transmutation is a form of transcendence that entails the re-integration of the broken you, I or we into its original whole.

So then I hope to propose two ways to address the mind and body issues with the ego. And I'll start with the mind as ET pre/proscribes it (and I hope others might jump in and add their own recommendations or corrections).

The key word is Freedom. You will need to free yourself from engaging and interacting with your thoughts. While silence is often projected as the goal and measure of one's meditation experience - it is in fact acknowledged that thoughts and feelings will arise and it is how you cope with them that gives the meditation its efficacy. Now I am using meditation here to include mindfulness - so it doesn't have to be something that you can only do at a certain place or at an appointed time it can be done anywhere and anytime and for any duration. To free yourself from the thoughts that arise you simply do what we discuss above - observe them as you would any other external object in the world of forms and accept what it is - there is no need to engage with it and to judge it. Simply observe it when it arises and then allow it to take its course out of your head. And if you find yourself engaged with it - then don't beat yourself up but simply return to the silent witnessing. If you find the thinking is harder to avoid then you can repeat a mantra, or bring attention to some bodily function like breathing and extend that sensation to other parts of the body etc. You can even use a Koan to try and incapacitate the mind.

Freedom is a very special word and in practice paradoxical. Freedom for me means to be unlimited or unbounded by anything, everything and nothing. It therefore aptly describes the experience of emptiness brought about by simply 'letting go' all the noise and bustle that is the content in your mind. Letting go is transcending or rising above that which limits, bounds and therefore imprisons us and includes therefore expectations - even the very expectation to be 'free'. I said it was paradoxical but I guess the reason for this is expressed in the Buddhist portrayal of the fingers pointing to the moon. Freedom as a word is an idea or concept and therefore just another linguistic signpost to the real thing. It points to the source - which is BEing. So here in the world of forms it's intended meaning points to the reality in Consciousness. So freedom in consciousness is to be totally free, unlimited and unbounded by the signposts themselves. I hope these distinctions will help clarify things for you in case you were not aware of them.

The Pain body in my experience requires a different approach which for me works but there might be other suggestions offered here by others that can be just as effective if not more so because we or were after all fragmented in varied and sometimes unique ways. There is usually a thought that triggers an emotion that can be overwhelmingly negative or just quietly but numbing-ly there in the background. This emotion in turn can feed back into the mind and we can end up with a looping effect where the two are just feeding off each other at the expense of your energies. You'll know now how to address thoughts but for the pain body - you could simply 'observe' the emotion in the body by going with the feeling. But again avoid judging it and allowing it to be associated with any thoughts or beliefs. Simply feel where it is arising from - perhaps at the pit of your stomach, the chest or throat, the arms and elbows. Its amazing what this silent observation will do amd you may even catch the movement of the sensations from one part of the body to another. If the observation is done from awareness - the emotion like the thoughts in your head will eventually if not more rapidly disappear. I do however again prefer to use the word transmutation. What you have effectively done is to bring the 'light of consciousness' upon the source of that emotion (ie. the pain body) and transformed the energy upwards back into pure consciousness.

Now just a quick word of caution - the pain body took a long time to develope and it will take a bit more time to transmute because it resides as energies in the body. However by creating as much gaps in your life for awareness or introduce many small spaces into daily life that may last as much as one breath cycle then this will help you tremendously.

Again I must apologise EM for the words I have used - I hope you'll be able to see that whenever I have used pronouns that you'll be quick to draw a distinction between the egoic self and true I. The prepositions, in by, through, into and out of are likewise just descriptive terms that merit the same. And finally - it could be that you know all of this already and if that is the case then I hope you will forgive me for being needlessly verbose.

Take care!
Last edited by 3dom on Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby the key master » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:20 pm

3dom wrote: This then accounts for the experience of boredom on your part - because the mind can only consider stillness and silence as a waste of time - it wants to move as soon as possible to the next thing. Boredom means therefore that the mind has not been stilled - external factors for you like the environment or even the body may be stilled but the mind is still actively busy doing what it does best. So long as you remain in the mind, you will remain in psychological time and therefore unconsciousness. The answer then is begin with no-mind and if this is entered into correctly then past and future gets resolved and the energies that were previously invested in fear, regret, hatred and angst etc. will get re-integrated positively into consciousness.


What or who is entering no mind? Is the mind entering no mind? Does it leave no mind at the end? If you are not your mind, why is the answer to begin with no mind?

The other thing that might help you EM is the relationship between the mind and body as ET sees it and which I resonate with tremendously although I come from a differnet tradition which its distinct labels etc. To stick with ET's descriptions however - the body hosts emotions which are or were mirroring the mind thoughts. I say were because sometimes the mind and body are in conflict over what the mind wants or desires to do as opposed to what the emotions are actually saying. Call it Cognitive Dissonance - it is nevertheless part of the overall dysfunction of the ego. When we view how the ego is energised by negativity then whether it is mental or phsyiological the outcome is the same in the head as it is in the body. Only worse because the fragmentation can be so extreme and profound that this energy in the body becomes an entity of its own. This ET calls the pain body which is not unlike what St Paul describes as "sin in the flesh" or the "Old man of flesh" that is warring with his members including the "inner man". Whatever label we assign to this entity which may include demonic or evil - it is not an external supernatural being - but simply a part of your fragmented self. The solution to the pain body is nevertheless the same as the that for the mental thoughts although it can only survive by remaining hidden. Awareness - in the present moment - or just Being has the peculiar power firstly of casting its light on the pain body and then transmuting the energy that gives it existence into pure consciousness. The term transmute means to transform upwards - so from a base state to something higher and more precious. As a term that describes the dissolution of the incarnate ego it is extremely fitting particularly in the context of the unifying nature of non-dualism as against the separative and divisive nature of dualism. The outcome of transmutation is a form of transcendence that entails the re-integration of the broken you, I or we into its original whole.


I like everything here except the original whole. Is the separate self being put back together? Sounds like dualism.

So then I hope to propose two ways to address the mind and body issues with the ego. And I'll start with the mind as ET pre/proscribes it (and I hope others might jump in and add their own recommendations or corrections).

The key word is Freedom. You will need to free yourself from engaging and interacting with your thoughts. While silence is often projected as the goal and measure of one's meditation experience - it is in fact acknowledged that thoughts and feelings will arise and it is how you cope with them that gives the meditation its efficacy. Now I am using meditation here to include mindfulness - so it doesn't have to be something that you can only do at a certain place or at an appointed time it can be done anywhere and anytime and for any duration. To free yourself from the thoughts that arise you simply do what we discuss above - observe them as you would any other external object in the world of forms and accept what it is - there is no need to engage with it and to judge it. Simply observe it when it arises and then allow it to take its course out of your head. And if you find yourself engaged with it - then don't beat yourself up but simply return to the silent witnessing. If you find the thinking is harder to avoid then you can repeat a mantra, or bring attention to some boidly function like breathing and extend that sensation to other parts of the body etc. You can even use a Koan to try and incapacitate the mind.



It's not like there is one mind trying to meditate while the other rascally mind won't stop thinking. And yet how often to meditation practices perpetuate this very delusion? Rather than start with no mind, I would start with being conscious that the meditating mind and the thinking mind are actually the same mind. While both may have their battle plans, neither is going to win this fight.

Freedom is a very special word and in practice paradoxical. Freedom for me means to be unlimited or unbounded by anything, everything and nothing. It therefore aptly describes the experience of emptiness brought about by simply 'letting go' all the noise and bustle that is the content in your mind. Letting go is transcending or rising above that which limits, bounds and therefore imprisons us and includes therefore expectations - even the very expecation to be 'free'. I said it was paradoxical but I guess the reason for this is expressed in the Buddhist portrayal of the fingers pointing to the moon. Freedom as a word is an idea or concept and therefore just another lingusitic signpost to the real thing. It points to the source - which is BEing. So here in the world of forms it's intended meaning points to the reality in Consciousness. So freedom in consciousness is to be totally free, unlimited and unbounded by the signposts themselves. I hope these distinctions will help clarify things for you in case you were not aware of them.



Yup yup.

The Pain body in my experience requires a different approach which for me works but there might be other suggestions offered here by others that can be just as effective if not more so because we or were after all fragmented in varied and sometimes unique ways. There is usually a thought that triggers an emotion that can be overwhelmingly negative or just quietly but numbingly there in the background. This emotion in turn can feed back into the mind and we can end up with a looping effect where the two are just feeding off each other at the expense of your energies. You'll know now how to address thoughts but for the pain body - you could simply 'observe' the emotion in the body by going with the feeling. But again avoid judging it and allowing it to be associated with any thoughts or beliefs. Simply feel where it is arising from - perhaps at the pit of your stomach, the chest or throat, the arms and elbows. Its amazing what this silent observation will do amd you may even catch the movement of the sensations from one part of the body to another. If the obervation is done from awareness - the emotion like the thoughts in your head will eventually if not more rapidly disappear. I do however again prefer to use the word transmutation. What you have effectively done is to bring the 'light of consciousness' upon the source of that emotion (ie. the pain body) and transformed the energy upwards back into pure consciousness.


There seems to be a crossed wire when you're talking about consciousness and your mind. The mind doesn't actually bring the light of consciousness to the energy which it knowingly avoids. Consciousness of the avoidance allows the energy to express itself. Why give mind the credit? If you burn a pile of wood we pay tribute to the fire, not the pile of ash left behind. The point may seem mundane but my suggestion is that meditation and mindfulness practices can actually re-enforce this core illusion, which tends to bring pain or at the very least a continual need to avoid and re-avoid thinking. These avoided energy vibrations may lay dormant, but this does not indicate transcendence, but rather, a lack of amplification and a need to keep at bay.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby 3dom » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:48 am

Hi Keymaster

Thanks for your comments. I have a different worldview obviously from you - and while I do embrace Nondualism as a source I also embrace duality of forms as functional expressions of that source. In much the same way one might conceive of a divine Creator and its creation or as I understand it in elements of Hinduism when they speak of Brahman Nirguna and Brahman Sarguna. I am always hoping that nondual principles will allow us to share a common source no matter which angle we are coming at it from.

But for me human language is by its very nature is dualistic so our communications by way of these posts can't really be divorced from it. Your post, my Post and EM's posts contain by virtue of our words truth propositions and is therefore dualistic and so long as we treat them as functionally dualistic and not substantive then IMHO that is totally good or as Americans would say it 'cool!'.

As I mentioned in my response to EM - one needs to read into my post- the distinction between consciousness and the mind. Further the labels and connections I have used are ET's so that for example - NO MIND <=> NO TIME <=> CONSCIOUSNESS - one could replace NO MIND with NO THINKING otherwise the order is immaterial because the outcome is simultaneous - we could even reverse the order and say therefore CONSCIOUSNESS <=> ... NO MIND. The important thing is to notice the connection between those 3 things. And yes it is Consciousness that brings the light - to bear upon Unconsciousness or No MIND brings light to bear upon MIND or yet again the Present Moment brings light to bear upon psychological time. Consciousness, No Mind and No Time is what Awareness is all about. I had hoped this point was made clear but obviously not. So if EM encounters the same confusion then hopefully this post will help clarify that.

Finally in regards to your comment about the energies in the body and transcendence - that is fair but as I said it is not the mind (thinking consciousness) that remedies the situation it is pure consciousness. As for transcendence well its an all encompassing word that includes transmutation - but essentially means to rise above the weightiness and the intensity that arises from substantive dualism. This is why as ET and others put it the soft forms like that of a baby human or animal, the transparency of crystals and the gravity defying flight of birds or even butterflies can serve aptly and almost immediately as those fingers pointing to the moon. The shared property of course is their transcendent qualities allowing us a glimpse or reminder of the freedom from the intensity and sometimes suffocating imprisonment that comes from the thinking mind and more specifically the mind identified with forms.

Having said that I do hope though that this thread does not get bloated with content that sidetracks from the matter at hand. I've simply offered EM help and inviting others to address him directly rather than my words. At the very least I think I've put forward a structure that we can build disucssion on for EM's benefit and not an arena for voicing our disagreements over the content. We could even address all the ins and outs on another thread as I am sure everyone appreciates the need for space.

Again thanks Keymaster and peace ...
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby the key master » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:15 am

Hey 3dom,

3dom wrote:Hi Keymaster

Thanks for your comments. I have a different worldview obviously from you -


Why do you say that?

and while I do embrace Nondualism as a source I also embrace duality of forms as functional expressions of that source.


Sure, creator permeating creation.

As I mentioned in my response to EM - one needs to read into my post- the distinction between consciousness and the mind. Further the labels and connections I have used are ET's so that for example - NO MIND <=> NO TIME <=> CONSCIOUSNESS - one could replace NO MIND with NO THINKING otherwise the order is immaterial because the outcome is simultaneous - we could even reverse the order and say therefore CONSCIOUSNESS <=> ... NO MIND. The important thing is to notice the connection between those 3 things. And yes it is Consciousness that brings the light - to bear upon Unconsciousness or No MIND brings light to bear upon MIND or yet again the Present Moment brings light to bear upon psychological time. Consciousness, No Mind and No Time is what Awareness is all about. I had hoped this point was made clear but obviously not. So if EM encounters the same confusion then hopefully this post will help clarify that.


The point you're making is clear, I'm just saying it's not logical. Clearly thinking or mind can exist in awareness, you can be aware of thinking without being the thinking itself. So how is No Mind what Awareness all about? Maybe we could say Awareness is about not getting entangled in the mind, or not seeking a sense of self through the mind, unless of course you are aware of these things, in which case you are already in the process of becoming disentangled, less identified with the mind. My point is that awareness is self evidentially aware prior to, during, and after the creation of thinking, and the thinking mind does not have to stop thinking or 'enter no mind' for this to be so or for you to be aware.

Finally in regards to your comment about the energies in the body and transcendence - that is fair but as I said it is not the mind (thinking consciousness) that remedies the situation it is pure consciousness. As for transcendence well its an all encompassing word that includes transmutation - but essentially means to rise above the weightiness and the intensity that arises from substantive dualism. This is why as ET and others put it the soft forms like that of a baby human or animal, the transparency of crystals and the gravity defying flight of birds or even butterflies can serve aptly and almost immediately as those fingers pointing to the moon. The shared property of course is their transcendent qualities allowing us a glimpse or reminder of the freedom from the intensity and sometimes suffocating imprisonment that comes from the thinking mind and more specifically the mind identified with forms.

Having said that I do hope though that this thread does not get bloated with content that sidetracks from the matter at hand. I've simply offered EM help and inviting others to address him directly rather than my words. At the very least I think I've put forward a structure that we can build disucssion on for EM's benefit and not an arena for voicing our disagreements over the content. We could even address all the ins and outs on another thread as I am sure everyone appreciates the need for space.

Again thanks Keymaster and peace ...


If your idea of helping someone is giving illogical advice then there's probably going to be some disagreements over the content of our posts. If you don't want to talk about it, that's really not a problem.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby 3dom » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:03 am

Hi again Keymaster

I do agree with what you have said as follows:

"The point you're making is clear, I'm just saying it's not logical. Clearly thinking or mind can exist in awareness, you can be aware of thinking without being the thinking itself. So how is No Mind what Awareness all about? Maybe we could say Awareness is about not getting entangled in the mind, or not seeking a sense of self through the mind, unless of course you are aware of these things, in which case you are already in the process of becoming disentangled, less identified with the mind. My point is that awareness is self evidentially aware prior to, during, and after the creation of thinking, and the thinking mind does not have to stop thinking or 'enter no mind' for this to be so or for you to be aware."

I don't think there is any conflict with how we are understanding this - but I do see how the confusion has arisen in the way I've worded things. So yes NO MIND and NO THINKING would have been more clearer if I had qualified them in terms of NOT being engaged or entangled in the very thoughts.

Also I don't mind discussing anything with you at all - I was just concerned about keeping this thread relevant for EM. It is however the nature of Message boards to blow up sometimes. Nevertheless and based on the above I truly hope the apparent lack of logic has been resolved and EM can hopefully make more immediate sense of it.

BTW - I know its naughty but I had to edit my original post ever so slightly to accommodate the change.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby the key master » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:31 am

Oh ok.

I don't think there is any conflict with how we are understanding this - but I do see how the confusion has arisen in the way I've worded things. So yes NO MIND and NO THINKING would have been more clearer if I had qualified them in terms of NOT being engaged or entangled in the very thoughts.


Ok so at no point does the mind or person enter no mind? Or are you still starting with entering no mind?

If entering no mind equates with the absence of thinking, then leaving no mind equals the initiation of thought processes, the engagement of the thinking mind. If mind can still be engaged, then no mind isn't really no mind but mind taking a break from minding creating the illusion that you are mind some of the time and consciousness without thought during No Mind. What sees through this illusion is consciousness, which is what you are.

BTW - I know its naughty but I had to edit my original post ever so slightly to accommodate the change.


Santa will be bringing coal if you keep this up.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby 3dom » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:45 am

Actually I'll just keep the wording as it stands and if it prompts a question from EM then certainly a clarification is in order. But again thanks for your input.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby the key master » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:17 pm

Well it was nice talking to you regardless. Thanks also.

--J
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby phantombaz » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:20 am

I'm going to answer this in the from of questions.

how dose it feel when you hear the voices?

what is it that you see when you hear the voices?
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby eckharts_mate » Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:25 pm

Hi all,

Thanks for your messages and apologies for not getting back to you sooner, things have been really busy and I can't thank you enough for such comprehensive responses, I've briefly read them but I want to read and re-read them to fully take it all in and give a thought through response. I'll get back to you asap and look forward to conversing further

Kind regards,
EM
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby eckharts_mate » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:33 pm

Hi all,

Thanks again for the responses. I'm very annoyed as I saved a draft on here with an hours worth of writing so maybe a good thing it's gone and it didn't save.

I'm going to respond generally but I will respond individually as well. Please note I am unfortunately going through suffering and my attention span on pretty much anything is woeful.

To answer phantom your questions 1. It feels like something is going on, a conversation that is constant that I am not even listening to unless I give it my attention which I ultimately do as the conversion is about me. I have improved dramatically with regards to my consciousness and have brought presence into my life much more but struggle with an ego that used to be out of control. The sensations now appear to be more of a physical depression of such, the noise in the head has quietened somewhat but now I get these intense physical waves of energy that I can feel so intensely in my body that cause me to feel awful. They are worse than the incessant chatter as it drains all my energy within a second but can often be triggered by thought. 2. I don't see anything per say when I hear the chatter but if you're referring to previous sightings I've mentioned in this thread then I'd describe it as seeing landscapes where they are hideous dark sharp disgusting places which are ragingly alive. It's difficult to physically describe them but I used to see it frequently as a child but less so now and only when my eyes are closed. I remember being seen by a doctor about it when I was little and all I can remember is having a finger up the bottom and sent on my way, how English...
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby eckharts_mate » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:08 pm

3dom, thank you for your comprehensive response, the language is totally fine and the eckhart termonology I am generally familiar with so that's not a problem although I am going to ask you to re-define one thing!

It's amazing, I read your response about 3 weeks ago and to be honest, I struggled to understand it, I struggled to read the entire message a) because I didn't understand most of it and b) because as I've mentioned above my state is very volatile and I struggle to do things like read or even watch something as my attention span is woeful. However I re-read it this evening and it couldn't resonate more especially what you've said with the progressive nature of the mind with growing consciousness and more prevalently with the pain body which is something that I hadn't struggled with really until recently as you can see in my most recent post.

Your paragraph below here is exactly what I experience, a thought triggered then bang I have a massive intense bodily energy override everything I have to the point where it is essentially debilitating. It's horrible, I can be feeling absolutely fine one moment and then the next I'm feeling sick and can't move/don't want to do anything. I have though for the first few times (in response to your paragraph about dealing with PB & mind) began to become aware of the pain in the body and being the observer of it, and incredibly I have been in a deep depressive mood and decided to become aware of the suffering and just simply let it be, which is the point it begins to subside. However I'm battling it st the moment and the mind has become less frequent a contributor but a more powerful one where a single thought can trigger a massive influx of hundreds of thoughts which can cause bad moods. One thing though, you mention here the concept of transmutation of which from your description I understand vaguely but not entirely especially when you mention non-dualism. I understand if it may be a situation where you cannot describe it differently given the termonology used and I may have to read up on dualism etc. But I must say thanks again for your response and I will probably pick up on other points soon but no response for weeks isn't great

"The other thing that might help you EM is the relationship between the mind and body as ET sees it and which I resonate with tremendously although I come from a different tradition with its distinct labels etc. To stick with ET's descriptions however - the body hosts emotions which are or were mirroring the mind thoughts. I say were because sometimes the mind and body are in conflict over what the mind wants or desires to do as opposed to what the emotions are actually saying. Call it Cognitive Dissonance - it is nevertheless part of the overall dysfunction of the ego. When we view how the ego is energised by negativity then whether it is mental or physiological the outcome is the same in the head as it is in the body. Only worse because the fragmentation can be so extreme and profound that this energy in the body becomes an entity of its own. This ET calls the pain body which is not unlike what St Paul describes as "sin in the flesh" or the "Old man of flesh" that is warring with his members including the "inner man". Whatever label we assign to this entity which may include demonic or evil - it is not an external supernatural being - but simply a part of your fragmented self. The solution to the pain body is nevertheless the same as the that for the mental thoughts although it can only survive by remaining hidden. Awareness - in the present moment - or just Being has the peculiar power firstly of casting its light on the pain body and then transmuting the energy that gives it existence into pure consciousness. The term transmute means to transform upwards - so from a base state to something higher and more precious. As a term that describes the dissolution of the incarnate ego it is extremely fitting particularly in the context of the unifying nature of non-dualism as against the separative and divisive nature of dualism. The outcome of transmutation is a form of transcendence that entails the re-integration of the broken you, I or we into its original whole."
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby eckharts_mate » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:25 pm

KM - thanks for your message I have to say the experiences I've had certainly resonate with your final paragraph.

You also mentioned dealing with dark energy and negative imagery as a child, and the title of your post is about not being able to hear the voices in your head. Then you mention this dream where someone is telling you to shut the flip up aggressively. As you're becoming more conscious and inquiring into thought processes, and dreams, you may notice pockets of identification and split mind thinking come to light. I find these pockets run intricately along the life experience and can sometimes possess roots deep in the collective unconscious. You may be dealing with malevolent spirit energy which is influencing you and sees your new found interest in Eckhart as threatening to its ability to control and manipulate you. Eckhart would refer to this as your pain body. As far as getting to the root issues, that would require deeper analysis."

Firstly WHY? Why does the mind battle, what is the reason for this? What is the point? Is there a proven scientific answer?

Secondly, can you explain split mind thinking? And the pockets which run down the life experience and possess roots deep in the collective unsciouss...not sure I understand this part?

I also am beginning to see people around me and parts of them which is unconscious, my parents for example are mostly unconscious and is it fair to say that they are almost not entirely there? Like they are there and well but the unconsciousness almost seems like they're possessed if that makes sense. Possessed by the unconsciousness within them and they are suffering - lots of arguing, money issues etc. I almost don't recognise them as it kind of seems like they are on repeat mode with the same conversations and it seems like only consciousness brings new conversation and can create change in their behaviour, for example, when I'm fully consciousness there is a noticeable improvement in their moods,conversation when I bring my presence to the conversation fully. Just wanted to add this as I'm experiencing this a lot.
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby the key master » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:14 am

EM said,
Firstly WHY? Why does the mind battle, what is the reason for this? What is the point? Is there a proven scientific answer?


The mind battles itself or goes into flux resistance because of identification. So, before we go further, mayhaps we should take a good look at what identification is and what identification is not. Identification is linked to the root word identity. It isn't your personal identity which becomes identified with something else, but consciousness of your personal identity which becomes unconscious of itself. You (consciousness) lose yourself in the dream of being something appearing in and created by your own very self.

Your personal dream in consciousness is not separate from the person you are in consciousness. Thinking and feeling move along conditioned lines of logic, and when your conditioned identity falls out of alignment with how you desire to be conditioned (who you want to be), voices in the head, spirit and soul complexes, and all sorts of incredibly interesting things can happen. Typically, however, the break through the state of unconscious identification only takes place when that identification has outlived its utility, or, threatens the survival instinct of the organism.

When Ramana Maharshi says the desire for life is as natural as it gets, this is what he's referring to. Thought intelligence separates itself from the higher intelligence which spawned it through the identity rejection function. It's not that some caveman thousands of years ago initiated this mental emotional function, but rather, the evolution of the human species fell into alignment with the potential to be out of alignment with an intelligence which transcends itself.

Because of this loss of connection the desire for life intertwines with the desire to be different than one was conditioned to be, and many wonderful innovations through centuries of evolution have taken place because of this loss of connection.Coupled to the loss of connection, however, is a distortion of reality and the unconscious yearning to correct these distortions. Essentially the rejection function allows one to see what is unconscious internally outside of oneself in the form of projections, and then attack yourself in order to resolve a conflict with the identity, which ironically, isn't yours to begin with.

Secondly, can you explain split mind thinking? And the pockets which run down the life experience and possess roots deep in the collective unsciouss...not sure I understand this part?


Well, the dynamics I just mentioned also function locally in not just your life but in the lives of those around you. While you can become dynamically conscious of everything you had been doing unconsciously to disconnect yourself from source energy, the other instruments in consciousness may still be running on out dated software. So, we say that each mind possesses roots in the collective unconscious. Even being conscious of how the identity rejection function functions does not prevent you from being a hooking mechanism for the identities other folks can no longer see. Of course by 'you' I'm talking about the personal identity which is not you. It all gets very intricate and laughable at the same time.

As far as split mind thinking. Multiple personality disorder has never been scientifically proven, and that's because even mind identification cannot be proven to exist as anything more than a mind state in consciousness unconscious of its own thinking. You can build a box around space and imagine the space in the box is all there is to space, it just doesn't mean it is.

Anyway, split mind thinking is the surface level manifestation of compartmentalized identity structures. You generate thinking and feeling and then imagine you don't want to think and feel what you generate. That's a split mind in a nutshell. You heal that through resolution of the unconscious. That resolution takes place through noticing debilitating dynamics which you are initiating and are not conscious of, which leads to the absence of what you'd been initiating, which allows unresolved thoughts and feelings the space for conscious expression.

Does that make sense?
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Re: I can't quite hear the voices in my head - advice please

Postby eckharts_mate » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:32 pm

KM - to be honest, it's eloquently put but I'm not sure I've quite grappled it just yet, let me read and re-read and then I'm sure I'll put it together. One thing you mention below - can you gives some examples of these innovations?

"Because of this loss of connection the desire for life intertwines with the desire to be different than one was conditioned to be, and many wonderful innovations through centuries of evolution have taken place because of this loss of connection.Coupled to the loss of connection, however, is a distortion of reality and the unconscious yearning to correct these distortions. Essentially the rejection function allows one to see what is unconscious internally outside of oneself in the form of projections, and then attack yourself in order to resolve a conflict with the identity, which ironically, isn't yours to begin with."
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