Free will is just another silly religious belief

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the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:37 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
the key master wrote:You're putting words in my mouth and distorting what I said. I apologize for not being more clear, in that i was using the word valid in the same context you were in your first post.
Apparently not.

You keep arguing for a context of your own making and assigning it to me. It's clear that you do not/will not see what I'm saying. That is not a new phenomena in our discussions. It's certainly okay, but further debate is pointless.

WW
Did you read this part ? -----> I understand you are saying all experience is experience and because you can grow from experience even the experience of distortion is a valid experience, and that's true.

Maybe I do see what you're saying? What do you think? You made up that context, and then I poked about a dozen holes in your point, which wasn't much of a point to begin with. Debating that further would be pointless, because it's obvious, and I don't really see any debate about that, just a refusal to acknowledge on your part.

the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:41 pm

SandyJoy wrote:Hey you lovely bad boys and charming love birds. Reading all this and had to add ( I guess I could claim I had no choice, but then again, I could just walk away if I wanted to, but I don't want to, choiceness apparently )
Apparently :mrgreen:

the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:55 pm

smiiley said,
We do this all the time, without awareness of it. We choose responses, we choose states that then feed into thoughts & responses/reactions - yes employing thoughts - but not because we have no control over them, but because we believe they are the only possible ones to have.
I wouldn't word the mechanics of a depressed person quite like that, because typically speaking people get depressed because they think happy thoughts are possible but are thinking unhappy thoughts and don't know what to do about that, which leads to all sorts of mind games and tactics which is the very suffering which sometimes causes a break in the cycle, and yes seeing through the beliefs you point out is part of that breaking free.

I think you're right that depressed folks develop positive feedback loops from within their depressed state. I sometimes call the root energy unconscious percolation, and someone who sleeps all day for 2 years embodies that percolation beautifully. Things are never stirred up enough to come to the surface but remain just close enough to allow the projection function to overlay a fear through experience that can't be noticed but can effectively inhibit any sort of meaningful engagement with life.

The mind can also assert the control it seeks in the happiness game through a reversion into new belief structures, as the shift from emotional percolation from one identity into another is an incredibly common thing. The rearrangement of furniture as it is sometimes called gives the person temporary relief from the boundaries which define it, but all too often depression returns because the new identity fails to provide connection with life in the same way no separate identity could.
So one can learn a) to not automatically 'assign' our interpretation to stimuli; b) to allow 'is' to be and to be a part of that, and c) to choose consciously our responses to stimuli.
I wouldn't say one learns to not automatically assign interpretation, but that one can notice things that aren't conscious which cause that automation. In the wake of that noticing did your mind learn something, or did it lose something? I suggest the latter.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by smiileyjen101 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:18 am

Free will is just another silly religious belief
is just another silly (religious or not depending if you kneel at the altar of it :wink: ) belief.

Break free from your beliefs and BE - free and truly awarely responsive to what IS, illustrated beautifully in this vid... https://www.facebook.com/244014645286/v ... 291826798/
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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DavidB
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by DavidB » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:07 am

"Free will is just another silly religious belief."

All beliefs are religious, in that all beliefs are some form of dogmatism or another to some degree. Either true or not true, it doesn't really matter, as what's true and not true doesn't require belief.

But yeah, there is no such thing as free will. Free will is the mistaken belief that there is a self that is capable of making decisions. But when we look closely enough at the evidence, we see only a self preconditioned by history and experience.

Nothing and nobody happens in isolation, and from this perspective and context, there are no decisions that are not influenced to some degree or another.

Ultimately, there is no self at all to speak off, and from this perspective, there is nobody doing anything and nobody making any decisions about anything at all.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:37 pm

DavidB wrote:"Free will is just another silly religious belief."

All beliefs are religious, in that all beliefs are some form of dogmatism or another to some degree. Either true or not true, it doesn't really matter, as what's true and not true doesn't require belief.

But yeah, there is no such thing as free will. Free will is the mistaken belief that there is a self that is capable of making decisions. But when we look closely enough at the evidence, we see only a self preconditioned by history and experience.

Nothing and nobody happens in isolation, and from this perspective and context, there are no decisions that are not influenced to some degree or another.

Ultimately, there is no self at all to speak off, and from this perspective, there is nobody doing anything and nobody making any decisions about anything at all.
Yup yup.

I would even go as far to say-if you look closely enough, you'll see an absence of that preconditioned self, which makes the free will discussion moot.

epiphany55
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:26 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Consider the matter from two perspectives. Are we observers? Or are we explorers?
Both, although "we", or the singularized "I" is just the lens through which experience, nature essentially, becomes a singular perceivable entity for this particular biological entity. It's more efficient than everything being fragmented like a kaleidoscope.
Webwanderer wrote:But who is doing the watching? Who is this we? How did it begin, and to what end?
The first two are meaningless questions. The watching is doing the watching. Placing a who behind it is playing to the illusion of a unitary self doing the watching, creating more metaphysical layers upon which to build this "watcher of the watching". Why can't the watching just be watching? The mind is reluctant to let this be the case.
Webwanderer wrote:As a curious explorer, there is the opportunity to choose between possibilities within that unfoldment.
Absence of free will does not mean absence of choice. It just means whatever we choose, including the thought process leading up to the choice itself, was the product of an unbroken chain of prior conditions.
Webwanderer wrote:Exploring is inclusive of observing. The who is a conscious individualized self that began with a desire to explore experiential possibilities for the purpose of conscious expansion and evolution. Within those possibilities of our greater conscious being is included the limited perspective of the human life. This life experience is available for temporary adventures and unique explorations into the perception and perspective of human individuality.
Nothing you have said there necessitates, or is necessitated by free will.
Webwanderer wrote:As to the idea of 'no self' - that we can consider self at all - or for that matter consider any of more than one possibility, demonstrates a an ability to choose between those possibilities. It's all about experience.
Again, choice, experience, multiple possibilities - all these things can exist independently of free will. The only difference is, there is no singular creative entity spontaneously authoring choice, experience or the multiple possibilities. Or at least there's no evidence for it.
Webwanderer wrote:Of course, one such possibility is living through the limited belief of no self and no free will. That brings a certain type of experience that is just as valid an experience as any other.
The only such possibility as a human being is living through limitation. Part of that limitation is that we are only conscious of a mere fraction of all the millions of processes that are occurring in our brain in any given moment. The more the brain is studied, the more laughable any notion of free will becomes. This is why I call it a religious belief, because to believe in something like free will you have to reject the overwhelming evidence against it.
Webwanderer wrote:I would suggest that there is no such thing as an imagined self.
Is that a positive claim disguised as a negative? That's not fair WW :) Even if there is no such thing as an imagined self, this doesn't necessarily mean an actual self exists. But because nearly everyone seems to be claiming ownership of a self, yet no meaningful locus of self can be found in the brain (in fact everything we know about the brain suggests the complete opposite - fragmentation), the imagined/constructed self is seemingly more plausible.
Webwanderer wrote:There may well be a mistakened perception of self (ie: I am the things I 'think' I am), but the consideration of self at all is a demonstration of the reality of self as consideration is a unique function of self. Pure observation does not consider, it merely observes.
Self may simply be a construct that gives consideration a singular coherence, like a basic program being a platform more complex programs. What are my cats doing when they stare at something for a few seconds before walking over to investigate? Is that not a form of consideration, albeit through their own lense of perception?
Webwanderer wrote:All that said, I would agree that most all of us have lived portions, if not all, of our lives through an autonomous mental belief structure. Thoughts arise from the conditioning present with little or no consideration of their merit.
Even if there was a whole load more consideration, as much as you want, each interjection of that consideration still arises out of an unconscious darkness. It is still, piece by piece, delivered into our conscious field. Nobody can say they wilfully and consciously CREATE consideration. Even if we evolved in such a way that we were able to be conscious of more of our, as of now, unconscious processes, all we would see is further back in domino rally. I can see how becoming more aware leads to more consideration, but it still does not bring us anywhere close to that elusive locus of spontaneous free will.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by Enlightened2B » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:28 pm

Epiphany, what exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? Have you not read the 900 million other threads about free will on this forum? What's the purpose of creating....yet....ANOTHER thread with the same limited ideas merely being thrown around in more circular debates?

You've already made up your mind, nor do I see a willingness on your end (and prove me wrong please) that you're open to embracing something much larger beyond our own limited philosophical ideas stemming from our conceptual based limited minds and as a result, hence you've put free will into a box ( comparing it to religion). So, what is there to even discuss?

I just don't understand the entire point of the thread.

the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:52 pm

epiphany said,
The first two are meaningless questions. The watching is doing the watching. Placing a who behind it is playing to the illusion of a unitary self doing the watching, creating more metaphysical layers upon which to build this "watcher of the watching". Why can't the watching just be watching? The mind is reluctant to let this be the case.
Is any 'thing' actually being watched might be a better line of questioning. Yes mind is reluctant to not actually exist.
Absence of free will does not mean absence of choice. It just means whatever we choose, including the thought process leading up to the choice itself, was the product of an unbroken chain of prior conditions.
Absence of chooser means absence of choice. Apparently choosing doesn't equal free choice. Arguing apparent free will equals free will is a misunderstanding of context, not that you are arguing that.
The only such possibility as a human being is living through limitation. Part of that limitation is that we are only conscious of a mere fraction of all the millions of processes that are occurring in our brain in any given moment. The more the brain is studied, the more laughable any notion of free will becomes. This is why I call it a religious belief, because to believe in something like free will you have to reject the overwhelming evidence against it.
If you're in a night time dream, you aren't going to find your mind in the brain of the dream character. You create the dream character and perceive creation through consciousness of your seemingly localized perception. Seeing you are not where you seemingly are brings clarity to the idea of free will. You don't need to study the brain to see that.
Is that a positive claim disguised as a negative? That's not fair WW :) Even if there is no such thing as an imagined self, this doesn't necessarily mean an actual self exists. But because nearly everyone seems to be claiming ownership of a self, yet no meaningful locus of self can be found in the brain (in fact everything we know about the brain suggests the complete opposite - fragmentation), the imagined/constructed self is seemingly more plausible.
Yea I don't know where WW was going with that one. He said there is no imagined self but then was seemingly arguing free will for that same self.

What do you mean studying the brain suggests fragmentation?
It is still, piece by piece, delivered into our conscious field. Nobody can say they wilfully and consciously CREATE consideration. Even if we evolved in such a way that we were able to be conscious of more of our, as of now, unconscious processes, all we would see is further back in domino rally. I can see how becoming more aware leads to more consideration, but it still does not bring us anywhere close to that elusive locus of spontaneous free will.


Of course you are creating your thoughts. You just aren't your mind being created as thoughts. The idea that the mind can willfully and consciously create anything is a misnomer. Because mind isn't the creator, it is the created.

the key master
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:02 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:Epiphany, what exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? Have you not read the 900 million other threads about free will on this forum? What's the purpose of creating....yet....ANOTHER thread with the same limited ideas merely being thrown around in more circular debates?

You've already made up your mind, nor do I see a willingness on your end (and prove me wrong please) that you're open to embracing something much larger beyond our own limited philosophical ideas stemming from our conceptual based limited minds and as a result, hence you've put free will into a box ( comparing it to religion). So, what is there to even discuss?

I just don't understand the entire point of the thread.
He seems to be finding clarity in his own way, even if coming across a bit rigid at times. If we discourage that rigidity I don't think this forum would be a very fun place to be around. Not only that, how many times does writing about something like free will allow the mind to engage in the thought/understanding/internalization process that reading can only shadow? I've written on the subject on this forum numerous times, and even this thread has provided space for greater clarity. In that sense I thank the OP, even if I don't entirely agree with his perspective.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:26 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Epiphany, what exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? Have you not read the 900 million other threads about free will on this forum? What's the purpose of creating....yet....ANOTHER thread with the same limited ideas merely being thrown around in more circular debates?

You've already made up your mind, nor do I see a willingness on your end (and prove me wrong please) that you're open to embracing something much larger beyond our own limited philosophical ideas stemming from our conceptual based limited minds and as a result, hence you've put free will into a box ( comparing it to religion). So, what is there to even discuss?

I just don't understand the entire point of the thread.
Because people believing things contrary to the evidence, such as free will (man as god), is one of the reasons why this world is so fucked up. That's a good enough reason to keep hitting it home.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:37 am

There is plenty of evidence to support any position you choose. The reality is you choose the evidence selectively.

WW

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by smiileyjen101 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:39 am

Epiphany, can I ask --- do you consider that you are looking at this from the mind? as if you are your mind?

-
ET: . As long as you still think you are your mind, you have no free will. Spiritually you are unconscious. You may think you know what you want, but you don’t. It is only the conditioning of your mind that says: “This is what you need to have”. That’s not a choice, it’s mechanical. Some people escape from this.

Then it is suddenly as if there is more consciousness, which means that for the first time they truly experience free will. Only then can you take responsibility.”
If so, you are actually hitting on the truth of it, and then you can free yourself from it, then you may pass into what ET speaks about above :wink: 'truly experience free will'.


(E2B you've freed yourself of a lot of limiting beliefs by engaging in discussions from your particular level of awareness, capacity, willingness. It's done you more good than harm, so encourage Epiphany... keep going, keep going :D )
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:30 am

Webwanderer wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support any position you choose. The reality is you choose the evidence selectively.
I alone don't determine what constitutes valid evidence - there are effective systems of logic, reason and empirical analysis outside of raw subjective experience to validate whether or not something exists. When all sources of evidence come together, we weigh it all up and make a judgement. If you know of a more reliable means of establishing what we might call reality, then let it be known.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

epiphany55
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:51 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Epiphany, can I ask --- do you consider that you are looking at this from the mind? as if you are your mind?
I haven't just appealed to my mind for the answers if that's what you mean. In fact I've been aware of the mind fighting against such notions. The mind wants to believe in free will. It doesn't care about evidence. It cares about self preservation.
smiileyjen101 wrote:
ET: . As long as you still think you are your mind, you have no free will. Spiritually you are unconscious. You may think you know what you want, but you don’t. It is only the conditioning of your mind that says: “This is what you need to have”. That’s not a choice, it’s mechanical. Some people escape from this.

Then it is suddenly as if there is more consciousness, which means that for the first time they truly experience free will. Only then can you take responsibility.”
If so, you are actually hitting on the truth of it, and then you can free yourself from it, then you may pass into what ET speaks about above :wink: 'truly experience free will'
I think ET is using a very watered down definition of free will here. I agreed in a previous post that more conscious awareness does give you more reach into what were previously UNconscious processes. So in that way it is valuable. But the word free is absolute. It is not merely "more consciousness".

The problem is that many readers of ET will not have contemplated free will very deeply as a concept, as I hadn't until a couple of years ago. So when ET uses those words, he really needs to provide a definition so we know exactly what HE means when he says "free will".
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

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