Free will is just another silly religious belief

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by Onceler » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:56 am

Logically there seem to be limited options. We have free will. We don't have free will. We have partial free will, at limited, cuspy times. We have no free will and think we do. We have free will and we think we don't. We have free will, think we do and don't have free will and think we don't.

I personally think we have free will at limited times. We can bend and influencefuture events with present action and intention, but not as much as we think we can. If we are aware, we can seize upon particularly fruitful moments that have the potential to be revelatory and game changing and which amplify our intention and action in some way...these moments probably don't come by very often. Believing we have greater free will than we do probably leads to a relatively optimistic, happy life. Until the shit hits the fan.....then we get spiritual.
Be present, be pleasant.

epiphany55
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:00 am

the key master wrote:What do you mean studying the brain suggests fragmentation?
There is no singular locus of self that can be identified in the brain. There are only fragments of activity, information processing, that come together to form the appearance of a singular, subjective whole.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6748
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:32 am

epiphany55 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support any position you choose. The reality is you choose the evidence selectively.
I alone don't determine what constitutes valid evidence - there are effective systems of logic, reason and empirical analysis outside of raw subjective experience to validate whether or not something exists. When all sources of evidence come together, we weigh it all up and make a judgement. If you know of a more reliable means of establishing what we might call reality, then let it be known.
You alone decide what convinces you one way or the other. Unless of course, you are just taking someone else's word for it. The problem of sources of evidence coming together is who decides what gets approved and what gets rejected? 'We' don't weigh it all up and make a judgment. Individuals do. Again, unless you are taking another's word over your own consideration.

I do know of a more reliable means of establishing what we call reality. I decide. This is true for everyone who takes responsibility for their own beliefs and perspectives. There is a mountain of evidence debunking the no-self concept. You either don't know it, or you reject it. But that's on you. That's also as it should be. The problem as I see it is the investment in a belief so strong as to blind one from a greater truth regardless of what we currently believe. Each of us must be ever vigilant against such a self-imposed limitation.

I'd rather recognize the truth than prove myself right. It is a life long commitment. Sometimes it's painful, but always in my best interests.

WW

Enlightened2B
Posts: 1907
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 10:51 pm
Location: New York

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by Enlightened2B » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:42 am

epiphany55 wrote:Because people believing things contrary to the evidence, such as free will (man as god), is one of the reasons why this world is so fucked up. That's a good enough reason to keep hitting it home.
What evidence do you speak of epiphany? Just because you can't find a Self in the brain?

To me, that's in line with the same limited reasoning of those who claim there is no self at all simply by conceptual based reductive inquiries (stemming from the body's direct limited experience), not taking into account the soul's incarnation process which is where free will is most apparent (even if that too is ultimately not real). Yet, of course, free will can only work in line with everything else in existence, since everything is a web of interconnections. Yet, even so, from the perspective of Source, we can say there is no free will potentially, since in a sense, nothing is ultimately happening, there are no people and no things, and therefore, the concept of free will is not even rational. What or who would have free will?

But then again, while this might ultimately be true, I find this line of reasoning is often concluded, on a strictly mis understood, conceptual level from the limited human mind, simply because our direct limited experience can not provide us with a direct tangible (or non tangible) view of the greater reality right in front of our eyes, when many of these answers can only be found in deep profound meditation, yoga, channeling, mediums, or out of body/near death experiences. We don't have access to the entire akashic records while experiencing in these bodies and therefore cannot answer questions along the lines of free will from our limited minds alone, which so many try to do, until we take into account the greater reality. Meaning, you're not going to find the answers questions like these, by looking within the already biased, limited, human mind, or the brain (which is just a manifestation in itself) unless you're truly willing to open your perspective up and take into account that which you previously rejected as possible. That which people continue to deny as BS or pseudo BS (Thanks David for that term :P )and therefore limit themselves once again into the same circular arguments about free will.

I highly suggest the teachings of Ram Dass. He's a non dual teacher who truly understands non-duality, but also understands reincarnation and hence why his teachings are geared on a more human level and less away from the traditional non dual dogma.

If you ask me.....we ARE creators here on this physical plane even if it's just "apparent" creation and even if it's just a type of cosmic dream of sorts. We're still experiencing it. I would suggest that we come here TO create not just to observe. You...are your own unique vibration of Consciousness as are my and yet we are all of it as well. That's why in NDE's, there is no separation between anything and all lives are lived as once by everyone, yet, there is still uniqueness and individuality determined by vibration, which is simply impossible to explain in human terms. The Water and the wave. One and the same.

We are Source itself beating to its own unique vibration yet we are all of the vibrations as well. And yet, within that uniqueness, there is free will. Why is there free will? Because Source's own nature is complete unconditional acceptance and love. It cannot possibly interfere with its own creation/manifestation because it's against its nature.....as unconditional love. You don't remember why you incarnated here, nor do I, but you did so out of your own free will ironically. We all did, which is why free will debates are quite comical.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:20 am

epiphany55 wrote:
Enlightened2B wrote:Epiphany, what exactly are you trying to prove with this thread? Have you not read the 900 million other threads about free will on this forum? What's the purpose of creating....yet....ANOTHER thread with the same limited ideas merely being thrown around in more circular debates?

You've already made up your mind, nor do I see a willingness on your end (and prove me wrong please) that you're open to embracing something much larger beyond our own limited philosophical ideas stemming from our conceptual based limited minds and as a result, hence you've put free will into a box ( comparing it to religion). So, what is there to even discuss?

I just don't understand the entire point of the thread.
Because people believing things contrary to the evidence, such as free will (man as god), is one of the reasons why this world is so fucked up. That's a good enough reason to keep hitting it home.
The belief in no free will can also equate to man is god, which is one of the reasons some so called spirichul peeps can get very touchy about the subject.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:24 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Epiphany, can I ask --- do you consider that you are looking at this from the mind? as if you are your mind?

-
ET: . As long as you still think you are your mind, you have no free will. Spiritually you are unconscious. You may think you know what you want, but you don’t. It is only the conditioning of your mind that says: “This is what you need to have”. That’s not a choice, it’s mechanical. Some people escape from this.

Then it is suddenly as if there is more consciousness, which means that for the first time they truly experience free will. Only then can you take responsibility.”
If so, you are actually hitting on the truth of it, and then you can free yourself from it, then you may pass into what ET speaks about above :wink: 'truly experience free will'.


(E2B you've freed yourself of a lot of limiting beliefs by engaging in discussions from your particular level of awareness, capacity, willingness. It's done you more good than harm, so encourage Epiphany... keep going, keep going :D )
If you aren't your mind (which by implication means you are not a person, but ET tends to hit the brakes before making that point), then the experience of free will isn't an experience as such. You don't experience no free will and you don't experience free will either. You can experience separation as if you have free will, it just does not mean you actually have that will, because you are not actually separate.

epiphany55
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:26 am

Webwanderer wrote:The problem of sources of evidence coming together is who decides what gets approved and what gets rejected? 'We' don't weigh it all up and make a judgment. Individuals do. Again, unless you are taking another's word over your own consideration.
Two heads are better than one. Ten heads are better than two. At some point an undeniable pattern emerges and the bias is weeded out. The scientific method is not run by a clique. It is the product of hundreds of years of evolving research, which makes it a far less biased form of understanding than what you are claiming. Why focus on a mere brush stroke when you can see the fully formed masterpiece?
Webwanderer wrote:I do know of a more reliable means of establishing what we call reality. I decide.
Based on what? The whims of experience of a single brain within a vastness that no single brain alone is capable of fully comprehending?
Webwanderer wrote:This is true for everyone who takes responsibility for their own beliefs and perspectives. There is a mountain of evidence debunking the no-self concept. You either don't know it, or you reject it. But that's on you. That's also as it should be. The problem as I see it is the investment in a belief so strong as to blind one from a greater truth regardless of what we currently believe. Each of us must be ever vigilant against such a self-imposed limitation.
Mountains of evidence? Evidence has standards. Evidence is not "I experience myself as X Y Z therefore I am X Y Z". That is the blindness in this world. It is what ties us to ego and an inflation of self worth over the broader reality that requires more than a mere apparent self to see.
Webwanderer wrote:I'd rather recognize the truth than prove myself right.
Or prove yourself wrong, which at least science is willing to do with the utmost humility and without any stubborn assumption current evidence will not be superseded. The individual is FORCED to receive input from beyond the self when it dares to look outside its own limited field of perception and accept other sources of evidence. To cling to the self as a means of understanding reality is to reject everything outside the individual human brain - the rest of what the universe has to offer independent of some random species on a random planet.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:27 am

epiphany55 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support any position you choose. The reality is you choose the evidence selectively.
I alone don't determine what constitutes valid evidence - there are effective systems of logic, reason and empirical analysis outside of raw subjective experience to validate whether or not something exists. When all sources of evidence come together, we weigh it all up and make a judgement. If you know of a more reliable means of establishing what we might call reality, then let it be known.

Actually, you alone do determine what's valid and not valid. Of course considering the thought of others might be a part of that determination. But yes to all that.

epiphany55
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:31 am

the key master wrote:The belief in no free will can also equate to man is god, which is one of the reasons some so called spirichul peeps can get very touchy about the subject.
Free will was originally a religious concept. It was supposed to be a gift from god that conveniently allowed us to choose to accept that particular god, regardless of genetics, birthplace and upbringing (at the time we did not consider these conditioning factors). The idea that we are merely just another form through which nature operates is the opposite of saying man is god. Man is nature. As Allan Watts said: The Earth is people-ing.
Last edited by epiphany55 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

epiphany55
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by epiphany55 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:33 am

the key master wrote:Actually, you alone do determine what's valid and not valid. Of course considering the thought of others might be a part of that determination. But yes to all that.
Which is surely not unimportant considering I am just one man with one perspective...
Thought is the object, not the essence, of consciousness.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:40 am

epiphany55 wrote:

I haven't just appealed to my mind for the answers if that's what you mean. In fact I've been aware of the mind fighting against such notions. The mind wants to believe in free will. It doesn't care about evidence. It cares about self preservation.
Right, and in this context, you are that mind. To imagine you are the watcher of the mind and not the mind watched is one way mind retains the belief in, believe it or not, free or no free will. Mind will do just about anything to prevent engagement with the belief, and this thread is a testament to that.
I think ET is using a very watered down definition of free will here. I agreed in a previous post that more conscious awareness does give you more reach into what were previously UNconscious processes. So in that way it is valuable. But the word free is absolute. It is not merely "more consciousness".
I'm not sure what you mean by more reach. If your conscious of unconscious processes they aren't unconscious anymore, and you don't need to reach in the black hole of nothingness to find them. In this context, you are not your mind, and aren't in the process of doing anything. Identification with the idea that you are is experienced as limitation, and when you get tired of that idea, you'll stop believing in it.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:48 am

Onceler wrote:Logically there seem to be limited options. We have free will. We don't have free will. We have partial free will, at limited, cuspy times. We have no free will and think we do. We have free will and we think we don't. We have free will, think we do and don't have free will and think we don't.

I personally think we have free will at limited times. We can bend and influencefuture events with present action and intention, but not as much as we think we can. If we are aware, we can seize upon particularly fruitful moments that have the potential to be revelatory and game changing and which amplify our intention and action in some way...these moments probably don't come by very often. Believing we have greater free will than we do probably leads to a relatively optimistic, happy life.
You are a person sometimes, and not a person at other times? My point is you're never a person, and as such you can never have free will as a being experiencing itself as separate from the subject of experience, because you are that subject. With greater consciousness comes increased potential, which allows path of least resistance to unfold in less resistive fashion. That doesn't mean more free will for the person. It means less personal limitations for consciousness. I wouldn't call that true free will, and I wouldn't call it no free will. I'd call it path of least resistance unfolding along logically oriented lines. In the absence of the delusion you are on one of those lines, the idea of free will is seen to be another silly religious belief, hehe. Or whatever, just an idea that may be beneficial to explore. It isn't silly or not silly, it's an idea you make up to talk about what you see going on, and it doesn't get to be more than an idea if you believe in it with all your might.
Until the shit hits the fan.....then we get spiritual.
Yea I notice that too :mrgreen:

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:51 am

epiphany55 wrote:
the key master wrote:What do you mean studying the brain suggests fragmentation?
There is no singular locus of self that can be identified in the brain.
The brain is already a fragment of self. Why start with the fragment?

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:26 am

Webwanderer wrote:
epiphany55 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:There is plenty of evidence to support any position you choose. The reality is you choose the evidence selectively.
I alone don't determine what constitutes valid evidence - there are effective systems of logic, reason and empirical analysis outside of raw subjective experience to validate whether or not something exists. When all sources of evidence come together, we weigh it all up and make a judgement. If you know of a more reliable means of establishing what we might call reality, then let it be known.
You alone decide what convinces you one way or the other. Unless of course, you are just taking someone else's word for it. The problem of sources of evidence coming together is who decides what gets approved and what gets rejected? 'We' don't weigh it all up and make a judgment. Individuals do. Again, unless you are taking another's word over your own consideration.

I do know of a more reliable means of establishing what we call reality. I decide. This is true for everyone who takes responsibility for their own beliefs and perspectives. There is a mountain of evidence debunking the no-self concept. You either don't know it, or you reject it. But that's on you. That's also as it should be. The problem as I see it is the investment in a belief so strong as to blind one from a greater truth regardless of what we currently believe. Each of us must be ever vigilant against such a self-imposed limitation.
Same with the separate self concept. So I'm not really sure why believing in either would be a logical choice, because it isn't logical, and the defense of the beliefs always come across irrationally because they are influenced by the unconscious to an extent.

the key master
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:23 pm

Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Post by the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:32 am

Enlightened2B wrote:
epiphany55 wrote:Because people believing things contrary to the evidence, such as free will (man as god), is one of the reasons why this world is so fucked up. That's a good enough reason to keep hitting it home.
What evidence do you speak of epiphany? Just because you can't find a Self in the brain?

To me, that's in line with the same limited reasoning of those who claim there is no self at all simply by conceptual based reductive inquiries (stemming from the body's direct limited experience), not taking into account the soul's incarnation process which is where free will is most apparent (even if that too is ultimately not real).
How is free will most apparent in the incarnation process? Isn't it just as apparent in your choice to eat beans and rice for lunch? If you see it's apparent, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
therefore cannot answer questions along the lines of free will from our limited minds alone, which so many try to do,
You can answer the questions. The answers just aren't that important when you see the questions are fundamentally misconceived.

Post Reply