Free will is just another silly religious belief

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:44 am

epiphany55 wrote:
the key master wrote:The belief in no free will can also equate to man is god, which is one of the reasons some so called spirichul peeps can get very touchy about the subject.


Free will was originally a religious concept. It was supposed to be a gift from god that conveniently allowed us to choose to accept that particular god, regardless of genetics, birthplace and upbringing (at the time we did not consider these conditioning factors). The idea that we are merely just another form through which nature operates is the opposite of saying man is god. Man is nature. As Allan Watts said: The Earth is people-ing.


I've heard some say the reason for children starving and genocide and the horrific things that man can do is the gift of free will. In that case it isn't much of a gift to those on the short end of the stick, which is why that doesn't fly with me. I wouldn't call free will a curse either. I would call unconsciousness a result of identity rejection, and seeing through that rejection as the absence of identification. That's what the truth gets ya, and it's not some personal free willy transcendent truth. Put again, the truth doesn't get you anything. It's seeing through the nonsense, which is the absence of putting up with nonsense.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:38 am

epiphany55 wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:The problem of sources of evidence coming together is who decides what gets approved and what gets rejected? 'We' don't weigh it all up and make a judgment. Individuals do. Again, unless you are taking another's word over your own consideration.


Two heads are better than one. Ten heads are better than two. At some point an undeniable pattern emerges and the bias is weeded out. The scientific method is not run by a clique. It is the product of hundreds of years of evolving research, which makes it a far less biased form of understanding than what you are claiming. Why focus on a mere brush stroke when you can see the fully formed masterpiece?

Actually much of science is run by cliques. Step outside the establishment view and a scientist may lose his job and/or can't get funding. It can and has been career ending for many who tried to explore beyond the religious tenets of the established hierarchy. That said many scientists do speak out regardless of circumstances. Much of organized science today is every bit a religion as those that go by that name.

Webwanderer wrote:I do know of a more reliable means of establishing what we call reality. I decide.


Based on what? The whims of experience of a single brain within a vastness that no single brain alone is capable of fully comprehending?

There in lies a large part of the problem. You appear to think that consciousness comes from the brain. Until you see beyond that limitation it's going to be difficult to genuinely consider a greater reality. Consciousness/awareness is not so limited. Consciousness is more capable than a thousand brains. Consciousness created brains. Each of us has our origin and source in that greater consciousness. It is our essence.

Webwanderer wrote:This is true for everyone who takes responsibility for their own beliefs and perspectives. There is a mountain of evidence debunking the no-self concept. You either don't know it, or you reject it. But that's on you. That's also as it should be. The problem as I see it is the investment in a belief so strong as to blind one from a greater truth regardless of what we currently believe. Each of us must be ever vigilant against such a self-imposed limitation.


Mountains of evidence? Evidence has standards. Evidence is not "I experience myself as X Y Z therefore I am X Y Z". That is the blindness in this world. It is what ties us to ego and an inflation of self worth over the broader reality that requires more than a mere apparent self to see.

There is far more to evidence than that found in a lab. While all evidence must be considered in its own context, to simply discard it because it doesn't fit a materialistic template is itself blindness. Eye witness or personal experience is indeed evidence. One account of personal experience or two or ten might well be suspect. But ten thousand, or a hundred thousand, similar reports raises such accounts to a standard of evidence that only the blind would reject without honest consideration. Full blown studies need to be made but too many 'scientists' use their position to block such studies. What do they fear? What are they trying to protect?

Webwanderer wrote:I'd rather recognize the truth than prove myself right.


Or prove yourself wrong, which at least science is willing to do with the utmost humility and without any stubborn assumption current evidence will not be superseded. The individual is FORCED to receive input from beyond the self when it dares to look outside its own limited field of perception and accept other sources of evidence. To cling to the self as a means of understanding reality is to reject everything outside the individual human brain - the rest of what the universe has to offer independent of some random species on a random planet.


Science has no willingness to do anything. Nor is it inclined to reject anything. Science does not think, it does not comprehend, and it does not consider. Science is a process. Scientists, human beings - fallible, biased, self-interested human beings, make assumptions based on a testing criteria that they choose. That choosing criteria is too often rife with bias and agenda.

There is simply no conclusive evidence that the brain creates consciousness - and there never will be, simply because it doesn't originate there. It is a tuner and a reduction mechanism but it is no more the source of consciousness than a radio is the source of the music that comes through it.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:45 am

the key master wrote:
Same with the separate self concept. So I'm not really sure why believing in either would be a logical choice, because it isn't logical, and the defense of the beliefs always come across irrationally because they are influenced by the unconscious to an extent.

Same with all concepts. And we all live with our own concepts. That's why it's incumbent on each of us to explore our own perspectives and their structures. And as to logic, we all create our own to fit our own beliefs. Knowing that is the beginning of the power to change.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:26 pm

the key master wrote:How is free will most apparent in the incarnation process?


Because there is no "conditioning" in spirit that keeps us imprisoned. In the human experience, every thought is often stemming from a prior condition of our lives here. So, the notion of free will is understandably in question in the human experience within a certain context. Yet, in spirit, everything is known already and is clear because it's all simultaneous and available at once. Therefore, choosing to do anything is merely out of clear and fluent choice as an opportunity to explore whether it's earth, another planet, dimension, etc. However, at the same time, every choice you make in spirit, still affects everything else since there is only One ultimately and all of that information is available to you in spirit, when it is not available to us here on Earth. At least that's what I've come to see in the research that I've done.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:45 pm

epiphany55 wrote:
the key master wrote:Actually, you alone do determine what's valid and not valid. Of course considering the thought of others might be a part of that determination. But yes to all that.


Which is surely not unimportant considering I am just one man with one perspective...


Up with hope, down with the dope! :mrgreen:
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:02 pm

WW said
Actually much of science is run by cliques. Step outside the establishment view and a scientist may lose his job and/or can't get funding. It can and has been career ending for many who tried to explore beyond the religious tenets of the established hierarchy. That said many scientists do speak out regardless of circumstances. Much of organized science today is every bit a religion as those that go by that name.


Tru dat. My bud went into the nuke program not really even by choice. Signed up as a mechanic and they said here slappy, figure this out. When he realized his intelligence was being used in servitude of madness, he couldn't just get out of the program. Eventually he got busted for pot, but the whole situation was a real shame.

There in lies a large part of the problem. You appear to think that consciousness comes from the brain. Until you see beyond that limitation it's going to be difficult to genuinely consider a greater reality. Consciousness/awareness is not so limited. Consciousness is more capable than a thousand brains. Consciousness created brains. Each of us has our origin and source in that greater consciousness. It is our essence.


Yes it's interesting how epiph is arguing no free will but also positing existence of consciousness in the brain (edited), which would equal free will and multiple consciousnesses theory. I wouldn't even say consciousness created brains, though but that creation is consciousness and being human is one way consciousness experiences itself.

There is simply no conclusive evidence that the brain creates consciousness - and there never will be, simply because it doesn't originate there. It is a tuner and a reduction mechanism but it is no more the source of consciousness than a radio is the source of the music that comes through it.

WW


Your body appears to something not appearing. Without the non appearing observer the ability for thought, also an appearance, to register and lineate what seems to be personal experience would not be possible. You are not a person, and what registers experience is not personal. Which seems to be what you're saying. Brains, on the other hand, are personal thangs.
Last edited by the key master on Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:09 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
the key master wrote:
Same with the separate self concept. So I'm not really sure why believing in either would be a logical choice, because it isn't logical, and the defense of the beliefs always come across irrationally because they are influenced by the unconscious to an extent.

Same with all concepts. And we all live with our own concepts. That's why it's incumbent on each of us to explore our own perspectives and their structures. And as to logic, we all create our own to fit our own beliefs. Knowing that is the beginning of the power to change.

WW


I agree that beliefs are created along logically oriented lines. You don't, however, create logic to fit your beliefs, but you can use faulty logic to keep beliefs safe from scrutiny. Meaning, beliefs are formed logically, but the beliefs themselves are not implicitly logical, and are in fact implicitly grounded in faulty logic from the mind identified state. Seeing one believes what isn't logically believable would lead to an absence of the belief immediately. That seeing, however, can be a damn rare thing, and the reason for that is the interplay between conscious and unconscious. And because, within a certain context, unconsciousness doesn't even exist, believing in that non existence to avoid scrutiny tends to be quite incredibly and audaciously common.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:16 pm

Enlightened2B wrote:
the key master wrote:How is free will most apparent in the incarnation process?


Because there is no "conditioning" in spirit that keeps us imprisoned.


So there is a spirit world, but you can't think in the spirit world? Sounds like an experienceless experience prior to experience that doesn't have anything to do with free will. It's like saying free will is most apparent prior to creation of the universe. That's just silly.

In the human experience, every thought is often stemming from a prior condition of our lives here. So, the notion of free will is understandably in question in the human experience within a certain context. Yet, in spirit, everything is known already and is clear because it's all simultaneous and available at once.


You knew what color my shoes are now when you were in spirit? If not everything was not known.

Therefore, choosing to do anything is merely out of clear and fluent choice as an opportunity to explore whether it's earth, another planet, dimension, etc. However, at the same time, every choice you make in spirit, still affects everything else since there is only One ultimately and all of that information is available to you in spirit, when it is not available to us here on Earth. At least that's what I've come to see in the research that I've done.


So the research you've done has not been paralleled to anything you've ever experienced. If you're comfortable with that, I can see why this thread might not interest you.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:57 pm

the key master wrote:You don't, however, create logic to fit your beliefs, but you can use faulty logic to keep beliefs safe from scrutiny. Meaning, beliefs are formed logically, but the beliefs themselves are not implicitly logical, and are in fact implicitly grounded in faulty logic from the mind identified state.

If it were just a matter of logic leading to beliefs we would all agree on the beliefs. As to faulty logic it seems to be only the other persons' logic that is faulty. Why do you think we have these endless debates over issues that are obvious to all of us yet we somehow seldom come to agree. Logic is too often a kind of mental masturbation.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:10 am

Webwanderer wrote:
the key master wrote:You don't, however, create logic to fit your beliefs, but you can use faulty logic to keep beliefs safe from scrutiny. Meaning, beliefs are formed logically, but the beliefs themselves are not implicitly logical, and are in fact implicitly grounded in faulty logic from the mind identified state.

If it were just a matter of logic leading to beliefs we would all agree on the beliefs.


No we wouldn't. Your mind operates along lines of logic. That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to be unconscious of the logic you're using or why you believe what you do. That's basically what this whole thread is an exhibition of, folks unconscious of the mind's logic, and there's good reason for that unconsciousness. With clarity, we all would agree on how mind functions and what beliefs are and how any particular one can't be ultimately true. But we don't see that agreement because of...wait for it-

As to faulty logic it seems to be only the other persons' logic that is faulty. Why do you think we have these endless debates over issues that are obvious to all of us yet we somehow seldom come to agree. Logic is too often a kind of mental masturbation.

WW


As I mentioned the interplay between the conscious and unconscious. Using logic isn't masturbation. Using faulty logic to shield beliefs from scrutiny is a different beast.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:39 am

Thanks. You've proven my point.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby smiileyjen101 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:02 am

Epiphany said: I think ET is using a very watered down definition of free will here. I agreed in a previous post that more conscious awareness does give you more reach into what were previously UNconscious processes. So in that way it is valuable. But the word free is absolute. It is not merely "more consciousness".

The problem is that many readers of ET will not have contemplated free will very deeply as a concept, as I hadn't until a couple of years ago. So when ET uses those words, he really needs to provide a definition so we know exactly what HE means when he says "free will".

Good point, but the unavailability of ET's definition does not restrict us from defining it for us, for the purposes of discussing it in this topic - what do you mean when you use those words?

I heard Neale Donald Walsch say once that free will merely means I do not presume to choose for you. No one does. As ET said in that quote if we don't recognise that we are choosing then we are not being responsible for our choices.

When you recognise that you are a co-creator of your (internal responses) experience of your (externally appearing) experiences - yes even if through past programming, nature, nurture, experience, awareness, capacity, willingness - you are still choosing your response. The two core energies of internal to external experience/response are love or fear. Love opens up, is magnanimous and free, fear closes us down, increases our sense (experience) of separation and limitation.

Once this is known you can evaluate the likely natural consequences of our response & recognise which energy flow you are co-creating with.

And no, we cannot know everything & build in for others' responses in advance, although we can 'notice' with experience that fear begets fear, and love overcomes it - that's just another factor in our level of awareness and capacity taking into account another's awareness, capacity & willingness and more maturely & even if you choose, more immaturely responding in love.
(my favourite definition of that being the equilibrium of gratitude & generosity).

I think ET does explain the resultant (internal) experiences very well when he speaks about conscious and unconscious modalities - conscious being in states of acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm, unconscious being in states of making enemy, obstacle, or means to an end of a person situation or thing (like say, religions, or free will, or even starvation - which one may not 'enjoy' but one may accept is a reality and only having accepted it as a reality will one do anything about it ie respond. The 'reality' is there is enough food on this planet for everyone on it, what limits it to some people is fear, and the absence of collective responsibility - response ability, but no one is going to choose for you what, if any, that response will be.)

Knowing WHY you choose one response over another is only the beginning.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:14 am

the key master wrote:You knew what color my shoes are now when you were in spirit? If not everything was not known.


Jason, I'll do my best to explain this from my own limited perspective. :D

It's a good question you ask. A very good question and one that I've considered myself.

My answer is Yes......you know everything in spirit, everything because spirit is all there is, all knowing, and your nature IS spirit, so you never actually left anywhere. There is no "When we were in spirit". You are spirit right now. There is only Now. However, THIS focus of attention that you are choosing to explore....aka.....this human experience, due to its limitations, is preventing you from seeing all of the other avenues you (as Spirit) are also, simultaneously exploring , whether it's other incarnations elsewhere in the multi-verse or work you are doing in spirit. This human experience is simply a narrow focus of attention that you (as Spirit again) are exploring for a particular reason/theme which you simply don't remember, nor do I. Just like certain animals can experience certain frequencies that we, as humans cannot.

So, there is nothing not to know once the focus of attention (which is what human life really is, just a narrow focus of attention) of the limited five sense physical body, is lifted and everything is once again experienced simultaneously as One, and yet, it's not experienced simultaneously if you choose not to experience it that way. Everything is a matter of choice in spirit.

Have you heard of the life review? When you have a life review after death of the body, you will experience everything you ever experienced including the perspectives of every single other person, object, plant, blade of grass, hair on the head, that you ever interacted with and more, because it's all you, as Source, playing all of the roles. So, of course you know the color of my socks right now, from a larger perspective, but again, you don't have access to that larger perspective while experiencing in this limited human body. I like to think of it like a TV channel. You can only watch one channel at a time while focused on a station. But, in actuality, all channels are running at once. But, this human body (the TV set) can only focus on one channel at a time.

If you'd like more proof of that, check out Anita Moorjani's book "Dying to be me". There are clear cut examples of this exact topic in her book of her knowing exactly what her brother was experiencing on the airplane he was on, on his way to visit her, including his thoughts, emotions and feelings all while she was in a coma in the hospital. It's not just NDE's though. There are tons of reports of people experiencing another person's physical pain when they weren't even in the same room as them (clairvoyance). There is someone on this board who had this very experience who told me about their experience privately. There is nothing mystical about this. Personally, I believe we are all capable of it. Some of us are just more in tuned with it than others.

So the research you've done has not been paralleled to anything you've ever experienced. If you're comfortable with that, I can see why this thread might not interest you.


Actually it correlates directly to what I've experienced. Researching NDE's and the like has allowed me to feel through my body what intuitively resonates and what does not. There are a lot of NDE's which do not resonate at all with me, as many are filtered through limited human beliefs. Of late, there is only a select amount of NDE's that really resonate with me anymore. You can try to analyze it, question it, pick it apart, conceptualize it, criticize that it does not have logic, but, ultimately, only exploring it objectively with an open mind, will allow you to know whether it feels right for you or not. Sometimes it's best to say.....Hey, you know what? I don't have all of the answers while I'm experiencing through this limited five sensory vessel. :D
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:16 am

Webwanderer wrote:Thanks. You've proven my point.

WW


You seem to have misunderstood what I said.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:46 am

Jason, I'll do my best to explain this from my own limited perspective. :D

It's a good question you ask. A very good question and one that I've considered myself.

My answer is Yes......you know everything in spirit, everything because spirit is all there is, all knowing, and your nature IS spirit, so you never actually left anywhere. There is no "When we were in spirit". You are spirit right now. There is only Now. However, THIS focus of attention that you are choosing to explore....aka.....this human experience, due to its limitations, is preventing you from seeing all of the other avenues you (as Spirit) are also, simultaneously exploring , whether it's other incarnations elsewhere in the multi-verse or work you are doing in spirit.


Ok so spirit is consciousness and everything is consciousness. At what point does that logic make free will more apparent now than ever? Maybe the rest of your post will shine some light.

So, there is nothing not to know once the focus of attention (which is what human life really is, just a narrow focus of attention) of the limited five sense physical body, is lifted and everything is once again experienced simultaneously as One, and yet, it's not experienced simultaneously if you choose not to experience it that way. Everything is a matter of choice in spirit.


Ok but you still don't know what color my shoes are, so there's one thing you don't know. This is what happens when the mind starts thinking its spirit and that spirit is everything. I sometimes say consciousness is all, but that doesn't make one separate person the same as another (it's a pointer beyond the illusion of separation), and the fact that you don't know what color my shoes are is evidence that within a certain context, you are not the same spirit as I am. More than that, the idea that you personally experience oneness is one of those misconceptions I was pointing to earlier. It seems to be a foundational belief from which you choose to posit argument, and so engaging further without a willingness on your part to explore the potential for greater clarity would be pointless. Nevertheless, let's see where you're going with this.

Have you heard of the life review? When you have a life review after death of the body, you will experience everything you ever experienced including the perspectives of every single other person, object, plant, blade of grass, hair on the head, that you ever interacted with and more, because it's all you, as Source, playing all of the roles. So, of course you know the color of my socks right now, from a larger perspective, but again, you don't have access to that larger perspective while experiencing in this limited human body.


But you said everything is now and all is one, which I hope is an attempt to express clarity with regard to the illusory nature of time. Then co-opt that idea from a place that's lacking clarity and start talking about death and time bound events and life reviews as if you're somehow in the same context. If there is no time, there is no death, and whatever gets reviewed wasn't yours to begin. Then you're going to imagine I believe what I just said, and taking some absolutist position with regard to the nature of time, which is not my intention. That is why these debates are circular, and it isn't because of an inability of clarity to inform human thinking.

Anyway, yes I've heard of life reviews, and no I have no idea what color your socks are.

I like to think of it like a TV channel. You can only watch one channel at a time while focused on a station. But, in actuality, all channels are running at once. But, this human body (the TV set) can only focus on one channel at a time.

If you'd like more proof of that, check out Anita Moorjani's book "Dying to be me". There are clear cut examples of this exact topic in her book of her knowing exactly what her brother was experiencing on the airplane he was on, on his way to visit her, including his thoughts, emotions and feelings all while she was in a coma in the hospital.


How did you get from free will to Anita's emotional bond with her brother? If you notice I actually talk about DNA footprints and non local communication all the time. Studying the mechanics of that is a big passion of mine. It doesn't mean your mind knows everything there is to know. ANd it most certainly does not mean you are your mind, or that your mind has free will.

Actually it correlates directly to what I've experienced. Researching NDE's and the like has allowed me to feel through my body what intuitively resonates and what does not. There are a lot of NDE's which do not resonate at all with me, as many are filtered through limited human beliefs. Of late, there is only a select amount of NDE's that really resonate with me anymore. You can try to analyze it, question it, pick it apart, conceptualize it, criticize that it does not have logic, but, ultimately, only exploring it objectively with an open mind, will allow you to know whether it feels right for you or not. Sometimes it's best to say.....Hey, you know what? I don't have all of the answers while I'm experiencing through this limited five sensory vessel. :D


It's not just NDE's though. There are tons of reports of people experiencing another person's physical pain when they weren't even in the same room as them (clairvoyance). There is someone on this board who had this very experience who told me about their experience privately. There is nothing mystical about this. Personally, I believe we are all capable of it. Some of us are just more in tuned with it than others.


If you see the free will question is misconceived, your desire for an answer or need to defend your beliefs would disappear immediately. There is nothing mystical about that. THere is something mystical how people can't see that, and what that mysticism is, is mind's remarkable ability for double think and self deception.
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