Free will is just another silly religious belief

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:00 am

Jason, where do I start....First of all, I never said anywhere that I or anyone personally experiences Oneness. I don't know where you got that from, but I think it shows that you're really mis interpreting my posts, and taking stuff out of context, albeit not intentionally.

The correlation about Anita and her brother.......meaning in spirit, I was suggesting that everything is available already, Anita was able to see what another person was doing during her NDE, when Anita's body was in a hospital and her brother was on an airplane, hence why, in the larger more expansive view, everything is available to see, including.....my sock color 8)....which is what you were asking about and I was responding to.

Ok but you still don't know what color my shoes are, so there's one thing you don't know


Sorry, was it shoes? Thought it was socks. But, I never said I do know what color your shoes are. So, not sure the point there. I made that clear that the way I see it is that when Spirit is focusing its attention on this human experience (in other words, Consciousness incarnated to the human experience)......it cannot possibly know what color your shoes are, because the focus of attention to the human experience limits what can actually be experienced from its full potential when not focusing on this human experience. So, again, to try one more time, while here in human body, Spirit cannot know what is beyond the limited sensory of the human body without having an OBE or something of the like, (aka an experience where the more expanded view of consciousness is available, not limited by the body's sensory).

However, I was suggesting that Spirit is infinite and only focuses a small amount of attention on to the human experience, while its attention that is not focused on this human experience.......already does know what kind of shoes you are wearing, as once the body dies, all is happening simultaneously with no more limitations.

I sometimes say consciousness is all, but that doesn't make one separate person the same as another (it's a pointer beyond the illusion of separation), and the fact that you don't know what color my shoes are is evidence that within a certain context, you are not the same spirit as I am


This point is exactly the point I have made countless times on this forum discussing uniqueness. Yet, it's a bit ironic,since you are the one who incessantly points out that there is no person, even in this very thread, read your response to Onceler. "You are a person sometimes, and not a person at other times? My point is you're never a person". But, now, there IS a person? How interesting. So, there's a person when it's convenient for you, and not a person when it's not convenient? :shock:

What does all of this have to do with free will? Actually? Nothing. My original point earlier in this thread, about free will is that if a debate is going to take place about this particular subject of free will, there has to be at least a consideration of the greater reality of spirit in my estimation. I suggest that there is a spirit world that is far more real than this human experience and that is where free will is most apparent. Why is it most apparent there? Because all of our choices there are done with a greater understanding of how it will affect the whole, with no conditioning to cloud that view. Yet, I am suggesting that choice is still the focal point of all creation.

On another note, you posted an awesome link in another recent thread about bio-energetics which is an area I'm studying. So, I want to say thank you for posting that. I saved it on my computer, because I found it really helpful.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:12 am

Jason, where do I start....First of all, I never said anywhere that I or anyone personally experiences Oneness. I don't know where you got that from, but I think it shows that you're really mis interpreting my posts, and taking stuff out of context, albeit not intentionally.


You said this,
there is nothing not to know once the focus of attention (which is what human life really is, just a narrow focus of attention) of the limited five sense physical body, is lifted and everything is once again experienced simultaneously as One, and yet, it's not experienced simultaneously if you choose not to experience it that way. Everything is a matter of choice in spirit.


When are things experienced as not one?

This point is exactly the point I have made countless times on this forum discussing uniqueness. Yet, it's a bit ironic,since you are the one who incessantly points out that there is no person, even in this very thread, read your response to Onceler. "You are a person sometimes, and not a person at other times? My point is you're never a person". But, now, there IS a person? How interesting. So, there's a person when it's convenient for you, and not a person when it's not convenient? :shock:


Within a certain context there is a person. Within another context there isn't. At no point are you actually a person. You misconstrued me again.

What does all of this have to do with free will? Actually? Nothing.


You said at no point is free will more apparent than spirit prior to incarnation, which is where our latest discussion started. Then you started talking about Akashic records and spirit knowing everything, and I said if you are spirit and spirit knows everything, clearly you would know I wasn't wearing shoes when I wrote that post. So I was pointing out flawed logic, in that if you are spirit, and spirit knows everything, then within a certain context you are not spirit. Rather than acknowledge that, you wrote another post on NDE's and pointed the forum to Anita and her teachings, which have nothing to do with your original point, which you do acknowledge. This is what I meant when I told WW that using flawed logic to keep beliefs from being scrutinized is a different beast.

Why is it most apparent there? Because all of our choices there are done with a greater understanding of how it will affect the whole, with no conditioning to cloud that view. Yet, I am suggesting that choice is still the focal point of all creation.


The idea that you could be 'there' and not 'here' is another one of those misconceptions. Nevertheless, what choice is the focal point of all creation? What are you even talking about? Who exactly is 'there'? The person? Or the all pervading self that couldn't be somewhere else other than here and now?

On another note, you posted an awesome link in another recent thread about bio-energetics which is an area I'm studying. So, I want to say thank you for posting that. I saved it on my computer, because I found it really helpful.


Cool. I thought it was a gem and bookmarked it to read again later. Glad you liked.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:07 am

the key master wrote:You said at no point is free will more apparent than spirit prior to incarnation, which is where our latest discussion started. Then you started talking about Akashic records and spirit knowing everything, and I said if you are spirit and spirit knows everything, clearly you would know I wasn't wearing shoes when I wrote that post. So I was pointing out flawed logic, in that if you are spirit, and spirit knows everything, then within a certain context you are not spirit. Rather than acknowledge that, you wrote another post on NDE's and pointed the forum to Anita and her teachings, which have nothing to do with your original point, which you do acknowledge. This is what I meant when I told WW that using flawed logic to keep beliefs from being scrutinized is a different beast.


The post about Anita Moorjani wasn't supposed to have anything to do with my original post about free will. I was simply responding to your very own post about knowing the shoe color in spirit. That's all you asked me. Please re-read your post. If there was more contexually with that pertaining to free will, well, I didn't pick up that from you and I apologize. How could I know your shoe color when we were in spirit? That was all you wrote. So, I responded by giving you an example of someone in a similar situation. There's nothing more to it than that.

E2B: Why is it most apparent there? Because all of our choices there are done with a greater understanding of how it will affect the whole, with no conditioning to cloud that view. Yet, I am suggesting that choice is still the focal point of all creation.

Key:Nevertheless, what choice is the focal point of all creation? What are you even talking about? Who exactly is 'there'? The person? Or the all pervading self that couldn't be somewhere else other than here and now?


Desire my friend. Desire is the focal point of all creation.

If you'd like to know more than that, go see my post about this, in the LoA section to learn more about my own experiences with it, or see my post directly to you in another thread recently where I explained my own perspective on how soul groups are determined by vibration.

Have a good night Key or morning where ever you are. I'm done here with this communication.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:53 pm

How could I know your shoe color when we were in spirit? That was all you wrote. So, I responded by giving you an example of someone in a similar situation. There's nothing more to it than that.


I asked you that question because you said you are spirit and spirit knows everything, which would imply you know everything. But you don't know everything, so your foundational logic on that post was crossed. I tend to not focus so much on your bifurcations once you cross your logic like that, because there tends to be very little that gets through, which is understandable.

Desire my friend. Desire is the focal point of all creation.

If you'd like to know more than that, go see my post about this, in the LoA section to learn more about my own experiences with it, or see my post directly to you in another thread recently where I explained my own perspective on how soul groups are determined by vibration.

Have a good night Key or morning where ever you are. I'm done here with this communication.


Now you ignore all my questions (those things with the question marks before I asked you about choice) and ban yourself from the discussion which you started, which is a pattern of behavior which demonstrates beautifully my point to WW about using faulty logic and not scrutinizing beliefs. You repeatedly don't notice this pattern and continue to point me to your beliefs on some other thread. I'd ask if you considered the possibility that when NDE'ers go into OBE, that the body which is 'left behind' could be 'overcloaked' in unconsciousness. Based on our discussions, I'd say you're pretty well over cloaked and at least heavily influenced by the 'spirit' which is behind Anita. Of course that spirit doesn't want you to see that, which is why you keep pointing back to Anita's teachings. Unconscious spirits like to play God, and I'm not impressed.

Anyway, desire is the focal point. I asked you about the choice you were talking about, and somehow desire equates with choice and is the focal point of all creation. When did consciousness not become the focal point? Is consciousness desire? Can you have an unconscious desire?

Oh wait, you're leaving the discussion, never mind.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Onceler » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:23 pm

This thread, and many like it, points to my growing suspicion that none of us know what is really going on (with all due respect to those on this forum) and collectively it gets even fuzzier. Personally I am becoming more comfortable with not knowing: if everything is one, if we have free will, if we reincarnate, if there is a LOA, and other tenets of dualism and non-dualism. I have believed many things in my life with surety, and disbelieved other things with equal certainty, many times illogically and contradictorly.

Knowing or not knowing these things does not seem to affect my daily life. However, the energetic, emotional feel of certainty is not as fluid and comfortable for me as uncertainty. There is a freedom in abandonment of belief which is perhaps confused with free will? Or put another way, can you have free will if you have abstract beliefs beyond the day to day dealings of this sweet world we are undeniably immersed in?
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Enlightened2B » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:36 pm

Jason, I'm going to make a quick point to you here.

Take a step back for a second and look at this thread. Just for a second. Look at your responses in this thread. You've spent pages picking apart every post, quoting people to no avail, disagreeing and pointing out faulty logic with every single poster at some point in this thread, even people who weren't directing their conversations to you. Everyone's logic is faulty. Instead, you can't see how it can possibly, just very possibly be that you are simply not grasping context of what some of us (myself at least for sure) are saying. I tried to explain this to you in the other thread as well that I cannot provide the answers you are looking for, because they are beyond human comprehension, and you simply could not accept that and instead you chose to point out how my line of thinking lacked logic.

Nevertheless, what choice is the focal point of all creation? What are you even talking about? Who exactly is 'there'? The person? Or the all pervading self that couldn't be somewhere else other than here and now?


You're so caught up in the notion of person/no person, as if a human being/person is the only point of individuality/uniqueness, that you can't see that I already answered this question in the other thread. You just didn't like my answer. Seriously. Go back and read it. I answered it by telling you that the "who" I am referring to within this particular context, is the unique, but not separate vibration of spirit that each of us vibrates at with Uniqueness once again....determined by.....vibration. That's it. Call it a light Being if you will. We are Source and we are also Light Beings. We are the water and we are the wave. We are both. Individuality is not JUST the human experience. Yes, I am saying there is individuality well beyond the human experience. It's beyond your comprehension and beyond mine. I know.

If you are seriously asking me to explain these questions in further detail as to the extreme intricacies of how the spirit world works, then you're not understanding that I simply can't. This is all speculation and surmising for me based on what feels right for me on a deeper level within my Being. Beyond that, I know as much as you. That's why if you're truly interested in understanding how individuality exists beyond the body, I'm pointing to you better resources that actually have answers unlike me, who is just speculating from my own limited perspective. Such resources as the link from Spirit Guide Sparrow which can provide you with much more, if you are truly looking for answers to this stuff. You are demanding logical based answers which you'll never find. This is not something you can figure out by logic Jason. NDE testimonies, channeling, mediums, and the information they provide often defy all of our logic and most of is still stuff that I still don't fully understand. But, the resources are there. Use your body. Feel into what I am saying whether it resonates or not for you. Stop trying to logically interpret everything.

I use what feels right in the moment for me. Again....feeling, not logic. Feeling when it comes to this type of stuff. My body has become a great resource of intuition as I have gained a lot of access to signs from my guides of late, even beyond using my body. I don't have all of the answers though in my mind. I use my body to see how certain material feels. If it feels more in alignment, then I resonate with it. If not, I don't. You want to know about desire? Read up on it yourself or use your own experience even better. Watch how manifestation works in your own experience Jason. Watch how your own desire for things manifest in your own life. Watch how YOU create your own reality and reality does not just happen on its own. Look at your own relationships and see how your own inner vibration manifests on the outer. I pointed you to a thread on LoA, which I explained in thorough detail how manifestation and desire works uniquely for each of us in my own personal experience, therefore, which is the focal point of creation as I see it from my own perspective, because I don't feel like writing it all out again. But, no, that's not good enough for you. The reason you're so confused on everything I am writing is because you are looking for a particular answer that suits YOU, based on YOUR own beliefs which are based in what you deem as logic and my answers are stemming from resources which you deem to be NON logic.

I'm ending the conversation with you Jason, because it's going in circles as if often does with you. I don't see a willingness on your end in any way, to understand what I am providing you to. When someone actually wants to engage in a conversation, they look openly to embrace another person's perspective even if they don't agree with it at this current time. I don't see you willing to embrace or discuss the links I've provided to you in the other thread nor a willingness on your end, to put aside your own limited beliefs to put yourself in a more vulnerable enough position to claim that you might possibly, simply, just not understand what I am talking about because of your refusal to go beyond what you deem as "logical". You talk about Self Realization in another thread, but if you truly understood Self realization, then why this need on your end to constantly go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth with every single poster trying to point out everyone's lack of logic by nit picking at every little thing that any poster says?

Have a nice day. You may have the last word.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:45 pm

Funny thing about logic. It's only as good as ones' resources of information and knowledge are. Logic adapts to the information available, and by that I mean the information one accepts as valid. Reject otherwise valid information and ones' logic is limited accordingly.

For my part, a greater reality of being, including a quality of individuation within a system of oneness, is clearly logical. Without some perception and recognition of that greater reality however, or with the prevailing belief in brain origins of consciousness, the logic of a greater reality will remain unseen.

As to Onceler's point about not needing to know, I fully agree. Life goes on unabated regardless of belief systems - until it doesn't. At death it will all become clear - or it won't. Some are motivated and interested in understanding more about the nature of life and being. Some not so much. Either way is okay, they just bring different experiences.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:27 am

Onceler wrote:Knowing or not knowing these things does not seem to affect my daily life. However, the energetic, emotional feel of certainty is not as fluid and comfortable for me as uncertainty. There is a freedom in abandonment of belief which is perhaps confused with free will?


I don't think the abandonment of beliefs is confused with free will, but I do think that's what Eckhart is talking about when he mentions the true experience of free will. It's not like there's actually a person that believes things, but that the person is the beliefs themselves, which makes abandoning them not very desirable for that person, obviously.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:46 am

Enlightened2B wrote:Jason, I'm going to make a quick point to you here.

Take a step back for a second and look at this thread. Just for a second. Look at your responses in this thread. You've spent pages picking apart every post, quoting people to no avail, disagreeing and pointing out faulty logic with every single poster at some point in this thread, even people who weren't directing their conversations to you. Everyone's logic is faulty. Instead, you can't see how it can possibly, just very possibly be that you are simply not grasping context of what some of us (myself at least for sure) are saying. I tried to explain this to you in the other thread as well that I cannot provide the answers you are looking for, because they are beyond human comprehension, and you simply could not accept that and instead you chose to point out how my line of thinking lacked logic.


I can grasp what you're saying. You're thinking really is illogical. You said I am spirit and spirit knows everything, but then refused to acknowledge you don't know my shoe color. The fact you don't notice your faulty logic is astounding.

That's it. Call it a light Being if you will. We are Source and we are also Light Beings.


I don't see you as a light being. I actually find your soul condition to be quite unconscious and unwilling to notice things which are plain as day.

If you are seriously asking me to explain these questions in further detail as to the extreme intricacies of how the spirit world works, then you're not understanding that I simply can't.


I'm really not interested in your understanding, just pointing you to your own misunderstanding to see if you notice potential for greater clarity, which you almost never do. Then you talk about NDE's and how you need to die or have an NDE to have clarity about not being the person that dies in the first place. You aren't speaking the truth, and your statements don't hold up to honest scrutiny.

Use your body. Feel into what I am saying whether it resonates or not for you. Stop trying to logically interpret everything.


This is how people get over cloaked. Stop thinking logically and feel you're way into the garments of human sickness. The spirit that's overcloaked you is scared to death of me, which is why you continue to attack me without noticing any of your own faulty logic and your, and I have to say it, creepy desire for me to feel or resonate with you.

I use what feels right in the moment for me. Again....feeling, not logic.


Child molesters do the same thing.

You want to know about desire? Read up on it yourself or use your own experience even better.


When I ask you about desire I'm not doing so for greater clarity, but to point to your lack of understanding. This almost always causes a reaction and it's when you go unconscious and all chance at honest discussion is lost.

I'm ending the conversation with you Jason, because it's going in circles as if often does with you.


Sure sure.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:55 am

Webwanderer wrote:Funny thing about logic. It's only as good as ones' resources of information and knowledge are. Logic adapts to the information available, and by that I mean the information one accepts as valid. Reject otherwise valid information and ones' logic is limited accordingly.

For my part, a greater reality of being, including a quality of individuation within a system of oneness, is clearly logical.


Ok lovely.

Without some perception and recognition of that greater reality however, or with the prevailing belief in brain origins of consciousness, the logic of a greater reality will remain unseen.



Ok.

As to Onceler's point about not needing to know, I fully agree.


Of course you don't need to know anything about free will. The idea that you can't know that you are the knowing and not the known is nonsense. Arguing the known has free will is like arguing the dinosaur in your bed has purple socks.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:38 am

the key master wrote:Arguing the known has free will is like arguing the dinosaur in your bed has purple socks.

One, what has this to do with anything in my post? And two, how 'logical' is this analogy? While there is plenty of discussion on the nature of free will, you are the only one who seems to think it has some connection with dinosaurs with purple socks. At least the 'silly' reference in the title is coming into its own.

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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby Onceler » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:49 am

I'm not saying one can't know about free will.....just saying it's irrelevant. We're gonna do what we're gonna do anyway, believing what we're gonna believe. Arguing what we're gonna argue. I actually don't know enough to form an opinion on this, which given my history, is astounding.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:56 am

Webwanderer wrote:
the key master wrote:Arguing the known has free will is like arguing the dinosaur in your bed has purple socks.

One, what has this to do with anything in my post? And two, how 'logical' is this analogy? While there is plenty of discussion on the nature of free will, you are the only one who seems to think it has some connection with dinosaurs with purple socks. At least the 'silly' reference in the title is coming into its own.

WW


I was making a comment on the entire thread WW, from a more global perspective. It didn't have anything to do with your last post. Nothing personal mang :mrgreen:

Anyway, the analogy - If you are the subject and nothing objective, the objective can't have a will independent of you. You don't worry about what color the dinosaur's socks are because Deeno the Dino isn't under your covers. As far as the silly reference, I said neither silly nor not silly, if you remember. I called E2B's more apparent during incarnation (edited) stuff silly because it is silly, and I think he noticed that to a certain extent or he would probably still be here. We can agree on things WW, really, it's allowed.
Last edited by the key master on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby the key master » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:59 am

Onceler wrote:I'm not saying one can't know about free will.....just saying it's irrelevant. We're gonna do what we're gonna do anyway, believing what we're gonna believe. Arguing what we're gonna argue. I actually don't know enough to form an opinion on this, which given my history, is astounding.


I'm not interested in argument but clarity is appreciated when noticed, so thanks.
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Re: Free will is just another silly religious belief

Postby dijmart » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:15 am

Free will, well the "person" certainly thinks they have free will, but how free is it, even if you think you have it? There are so many things within our environment that could stop or delay your supposed "free will". I could decide to go to Wal mart right now and never get there for a hundred reasons or you could say we have "limited" free will, such as, I choose pepsi over coke (if I had both in house, of course). So did I make that limited choice or not? If we have "limited" choice and that presumes that your mental tendencies, karma, environment, ect line up with what you think you choose, then did you really choose it or was it what you were programmed to do through your conditioning, ect.

It's a complicated subject and ones perspective has to be taken into consideration. Are you speaking as awareness or as the apparent person, that's what it comes down to really.
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