Realisation and the mind

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby smiileyjen101 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:28 am

Liked E2B's 'wanting' another word rather than 'work' 'working' and I'd add 'practice' and 'practising'
If you are working or practising at it the focus is on the process or journey, not the content.

How about be and being?
This includes / balances / blends and harmonises awareness of and in both process and content thought or experienced.

Which is kinda why it feels joyful E2B it just is.
(ET coins it as conscious states of awareness exhibiting as acceptance, enjoyment, enthusiasm.)
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com
User avatar
smiileyjen101
 
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:44 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby Rob X » Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Sighclone wrote:What about the need for identity at all? Does that also dissolve? Is "Amness" closer to the truth than "I Am?"


Interesting musings Andy. As I see it, identity is purely functional - and in its own domain, necessary. Wouldn't you agree?

I like to think of it as a series of nested circles.

For instance, draw a small circle and in that write 'I am a father' (mother, brother, sister etc.) Draw a larger circle around that and in it write 'I am a man'. In a larger circle around that write I am a 'human being'...

Realisation is the recognition of the page on which these circles are drawn.

As you can see, these categories are not exclusive - one doesn't exclude the other. They are nested - each is encompassed within a wider reality. There is no duality in acknowledging a functional/practical role while being aware of true identity - these functional roles can be said to be expressions within that.
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby Sighclone » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:08 am

I started a new post on Identity here: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=13578
Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby snowheight » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:23 am

runstrails wrote:
RobX wrote: But there is really no requirement to grind the ego to dust. The ego (in a spiritual context) means attachment to the limited self. This is about seeing through the ego/limited phenomenal self and having the realisation of the truth of our situation. I acknowledge that the stabilising of this awakened 'state' (what some refer to as liberation) can take years.


Nicely stated, Rob. The whole point of moksha (liberation) is to ultimately be able to enjoy one's life without attachment (to the limited self). When self-realization is firm, then the ego (jiva) is not a problem, since as Rob says, it is seen through. In fact, there is a lot of love for the jiva and for all of creation.
When you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are eternal, then you don't struggle with trying to get rid of something that you know to be apparent. It would be like striving to turn out the light bulb when the room is full of bright sunlight :D.

Snowy wrote: And how's Prof. 'Trails and Running Mom, how are they doin'?

All is well. Thanks for asking. I did my first ultramarathon distance last year. Pretty crazy. Kid is a pre-teen now. I've often thought that the acid test for a self-realized person would be to spend an hour with an American teenager :lol:.
Hope you get to ski next year :D.


*Wow*! to the UM 'trails. :D .. whelps given your healthy attitude about binding vassana's worth keeping I'm sure your daughter is in good hands.

With regard to ego, ET's idea of ego reminds me of Niz'z "person", and even ET is pretty clear if you read closely that it's only ego that would want to stamp out or eradicate ego. Adya once posed an ego-idea that I found very simple and elegant: a sense of either "mine", or "not-mine". There's a subtle but very profound implication to thinking of it in these terms, in that if ego is seen then it's only ever seen by another ego. But of course that' s not to say that clarity of the witness is blind to it, just that there's also clarity about when witnessing ends and engagement begins.

But of course, anyone wanting to criticize that last paragraph as a place where ego can go hide itself in rationalization wouldn't be completely wrong in terms of a potential peril.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby ashley72 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:03 pm

snowheight wrote:One afternoon 30 years ago I had a dorm room talk with a friend who'd gone on to major in Physics (mine was engineering). He was interested at the time in the topic of the Quantum Observer and said something to the effect "this changes everything and they shouldn't call it Physics anymore".

Me: "huh?"

Stefano: "If a measurement requires an observer then it's not a purely physical process."

Me: "What? Nah, there's an apparatus with power plugs and metal and glass and the whole dealio is a physical process."

Stefano: "But how do you account for yourself in that loop? How do you explain the physicality of the observer?"

Me: "It's my physicality, right?"

Stefano got a look across his face that I'll never forget. He was processing something and knowing me, he knew that any more talk would be useless. He gave me his chess set as a parting gift on our last days together 'cause I always kicked his ass. He nodded slightly and said "oh, so you think of yourself as a physical process then?"

Me: "well, yeah, duh, what else would I be?"

And that rationalization was a salvage of my sense of identity based on myself as walking stardust in a real material world, but something didn't quite sit right after that. The identity poker game was on, and it was 99% unconscious for 20+ years. I dunno, if someone had hit me over the head with changlessness back then I can't say how I would have reacted. Image



Bill,

You still banging on about the observer effect? That we need an observer to perceive an event before the wave collapses!

Carver Mead who was a student & great collaborator of Richard Feynman.... IMHO Carver is probably the greatest "practical" quantum physicists of our time, says the Copenhagen view (observer effect) is the biggest mistake in physics in the last century.

You really should read this interview with him below its very enlightening. :D

Carver mead is super super smart, and he's done a lot of work in this field. He's even got a competing theory of gravitational waves called g4v which could rewrite physics as we know it. With the recent detection of the first gravitational waves, Carver Meads own theory will go up against Einstein's theory when the advance Ligo comes on line in the next few years (the interferometer in Milan Italy). If Carver's gv4 theory is a better fit of the advanced Ligo data, it will cause a major shake up in physics as we know it today.

http://worrydream.com/refs/Mead%20-%20American%20Spectator%20Interview.html

I personally can't believe a physicist with Carver Meads standing & track record in Silicon Valley isn't listened to more seriously. You get media whores like Lawrence Krauss & Brian Greene who basically haven't added any practical applications to physics hogging the limelight. :cry:

Carver Mead who is now 82, could go to his grave before he's truly recognized for being one of the greatest quantum physicists of our time.... A true scientists in every way... instead we've got all these pretenders, or egos hijacking the science community.
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby snowheight » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:47 am

:D Hey Ash, how ya' been man?

Science is a process of replacing one belief with another, and this is similar to the process of identity poker, except that one is collective with attention focused outward, while the other is subjective with the primary focus inward, and of course, the two processes can conflate. What I was describing with that old story involved a particular version of that conflation, starting with the thought of myself as a disconnected piece of a larger material reality that I found myself within. The CI is what it is, and regardless of whether it's ever replaced as the conventional consensus, my story is about how an intellectual understanding started the cards dealing. The game can and does end, and when it does, there's no replacing the old beliefs with a new one, and the situation can only be explained in terms of an absence. :)
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby ashley72 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:56 pm

I think the business of science is more like the creative process of placing concepts side by side which generally start out from separate conceptual spaces, this kind of conjunction creates not just a new idea that didn't exist, but also fuses the existing separate conceptual spaces into a larger conceptual space or framework. :D

So science is not the same act as say religion, where you do have in place a rigid conceptual framework (ideology or doctrine) which doesn't grow or change over time in the way science does.

There is no denying that science is trying to understand cause and effect by analysis of the data using experimental measurement. That core doctrine doesn't change, but the conceptual framework from the process of doing science certainly does. This is really the beautiful thing about science, it's always evolving and adding to a conceptual space which is in principle trying to map the physical space. You kind of have a digital space which tends to be discreet (yes or no) but always evolving and growing and the physical space is a continuous space which is not discreet at all but rather in an a constant ebb and flow.

In respect to our identity, I think its always prone to the emotional cycle of change, which tends to oscillate back and forth in a duality path-lines. However, the diligent & enlightened individual generally knows it's better to stay the middle path as much as possible and keep an even keel :wink:
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby snowheight » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:20 pm

Well ash, ya' only need a keel if yer on a boat. :wink:

Nicely put about science, it's a beautiful thing man. Heisenberg wrote a nice exposition of the relationship between the known and unknown in his Physics and Philosophy. Infinity is a funny little concept, isn't it? Mathematicians will likely be earning their living off it for generations to come. In terms of limitlessness, the unknown will always be the greater of the two infinities.
Last edited by snowheight on Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby rachMiel » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:34 am

Ashley, science lover that you are, you must appreciate Hofstadter's "I am a strange loop" take on consciousness and identity, yes?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
User avatar
rachMiel
 
Posts: 2420
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Pittsford

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby ashley72 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:26 pm

rachMiel wrote:Ashley, science lover that you are, you must appreciate Hofstadter's "I am a strange loop" take on consciousness and identity, yes?


Yes, I think the strange loop has merit.

While we're on artificial perception, Google recently made an api available called tensor-flow, which is for image recognition. I manage to get it running on my webserver and it was really impressive. Basically you could scan a random photo and it will associate categories or concepts with the photo... it was definitely able to classify images with sub categories greatly exceeding the level of most children.

You can read about it here.

https://www.tensorflow.org/versions/r0.7/tutorials/image_recognition/index.html

AI Technology is now advancing rapidly, next year will probably be talking about even higher level AI stuff.
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby snowheight » Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:14 am

tflow has much broader and general application other than just image processing.

google: "we know where you live Image "
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
snowheight
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:56 pm

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby ashley72 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:08 am

snowheight wrote:tflow has much broader and general application other than just image processing.

google: "we know where you live Image "


Sure, didn't want to over complicate it Bill. :wink:

Anyway, for those interested here is a screenshot of the image recognition shiny app I've got running on my computer. You can upload any photos from internet you find to the app.... it then scans the image and displays a 3D sphere that can be rotated in the webpage with a word cloud of what it thinks the image is on the surface of the sphere. In this case it nailed it... the strange animal is a the proboscis monkey (Nasalis larvatus). You can't see all the words in the photo unless you spin the ball, but it did guess right both the common name and scientific name of the monkey.

I'm guessing less than 0.0000000001% of the population would know the correct names given that photo.

Image



Here's another example when its not so sure, but still guessed correctly the girl was wearing a two piece swimming costume!

Image
User avatar
ashley72
 
Posts: 2533
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:24 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby OATTAO » Mon May 30, 2016 6:51 am

RoB X would you say Taoism is finding something very subtle that is in you, always with you, never changing and then recognizing "seeing" it in all other forms?
OATTAO
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 6:47 am

Re: Realisation and the mind

Postby Rob X » Tue May 31, 2016 4:10 pm

OATTAO wrote:RoB X would you say Taoism is finding something very subtle that is in you, always with you, never changing and then recognizing "seeing" it in all other forms?


Hi OATTAO

Initially it may seem subtle but really there's nothing intrinsically subtle about it - it can't be avoided.

If we pay attention we might recognise that Life is simply happening on its own. I would say that Tao is a word that points to this ineffable event of Life.
User avatar
Rob X
 
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:37 pm

Previous

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests