Birthright

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Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:08 am

What if — along with the usual abilities we acquire in the course of human development: to walk, talk, think, differentiate self from other, dream, imagine, feel, love, hate, etc. — there is a dormant spiritual/transcendent ability that is present in all of us, a birthright, but one that only gets fully activated for a small number of us?

This notion arose from contact I've had with friends who have undergone a profound transformation experience: awakening, realization, kundalini, whatever. It got me thinking that this kind of spiritual transformation might be a perfectly natural occurrence, a stage of life as inherent to being human as childhood, adolescence, adulthood, etc.

This resonate with anyone? Or am I just spinning a spiritual fairy tale? :-)
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Re: Birthright

Postby runstrails » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:58 am

Makes sense to me. In Vedanta it would be the consequence of one's sanchita karma and prarabdha karma.
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Re: Birthright

Postby Webwanderer » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:43 pm

One thing that has been a consideration for me for some time now, is that in the infinity of being, whatever wonderful possibilities I can imagine from this human mindset pale in comparison to what actually exists. So yes, I agree with your thoughts on an evolutionary birthright - and likely much, much, more.

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Re: Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:17 pm

If Vedanta got it right ... each of us (atman) is the totality (brahman). Blake knew it:

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

And if each of us is the totality, that gives us a mighty big palette to work with. :-)
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Re: Birthright

Postby dijmart » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:55 am

Yep, I agree also! :D
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Re: Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:15 am

Personally I've had a bunch of Aha! realizations over the years but nothing I would call a radical transformation. My waking up to the nature/potential of existence has been very gradual, a long slow Woah ... rather than an explosive WOAH! Lover of drama that I am, I sometimes still yearn for an explosion, perhaps like the Scarecrow yearned for a diploma. But I've come to feel more and more content with my slow burning fire. Everyone has their own path, and diplomas are ultimately just pieces of paper.

You guys?
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Re: Birthright

Postby dijmart » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:41 am

I think the slow burn is most common, that's been the way with me also. Aha moments, that end up dissipating back into ignorance, then more aha's and ignorance. I've realized the Self, but have not yet assimilated that knowlegde in the way that Vedanta describes it, which would be Moksha (liberation/freedom).

Freedom requires constant vigilance (in thought, word and deed) and effort applying the teachings of Vedanta is required in this stage, to assimilate the knowledge, but it will come in due time....in Isvara's time :wink: The explosion isn't necessary at all, removal of ignorance is, not only our true nature, but being able to discriminate mithya from satya always and having this knowledge be hard and fast. Also, relinquishing the sense of doership and therefore ownership of the Jiva/person (you are the knower of the doer) and rendering the "binding" vasanas (tendencies) non-binding. Vedanta knowledge does the work, not the Jiva..the realizations do happen in the jivas intellect though. So, you do your best knowing your on the Vedanta bus.... That is if your into Vedanta. Which I clearly am and haven't needed to read anything else since I found it. Thanks you RT!!!

Again, for those that don't know, you can read satsangs at shingingworld.com and nevernotpresent. Also, James Swartz has many full satsang series on youtube.

Ps. Sorry about the sanskrit wordage, but it fits most appropriately.
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Re: Birthright

Postby Rob X » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:01 pm

rachMiel wrote:What if — along with the usual abilities we acquire in the course of human development: to walk, talk, think, differentiate self from other, dream, imagine, feel, love, hate, etc. — there is a dormant spiritual/transcendent ability that is present in all of us, a birthright, but one that only gets fully activated for a small number of us?

This notion arose from contact I've had with friends who have undergone a profound transformation experience: awakening, realization, kundalini, whatever. It got me thinking that this kind of spiritual transformation might be a perfectly natural occurrence, a stage of life as inherent to being human as childhood, adolescence, adulthood, etc.

This resonate with anyone? Or am I just spinning a spiritual fairy tale? :-)


I see what you're getting at here Rach, but would suggest that we start (at birth) "fully activated" and it rapidly becomes obscured throughout early childhood. Later in life (for multiple reasons), glimpses may start to appear - but I agree, only for some.

Now whether there is an agreement with this may depend on your definition of awakening (and in my experience there appears to be many versions and variations.)

The nearest I would come to a definition is to say that it is the gnosis/felt-sense of no-separation (or felt-sense of the oneness of Life.)

So in my version we start with this sense (but obviously can't articulate it) and then get talked out of it. To regain later it is like swimming against the tide - that's why a great shock or event is often required.
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Re: Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:39 pm

Yeah, I think you're right, we do have somewhat different takes on awakening.

I see it as something that "happens" to a fully formed adult mind, one that awakens from the sleep of living in concepts.

I think there's a qualitative difference between the pure-being state of a newborn and of an adult who has gone through years of delusion and "returned home." You not?
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Re: Birthright

Postby Rob X » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:20 am

rachMiel wrote:Yeah, I think you're right, we do have somewhat different takes on awakening.

I see it as something that "happens" to a fully formed adult mind, one that awakens from the sleep of living in concepts.

I think there's a qualitative difference between the pure-being state of a newborn and of an adult who has gone through years of delusion and "returned home." You not?


Yes, you're right, awakening does suggest a returning home. But that's what I'm alluding to - home, our original nature - prior to the arising of delusion.
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Re: Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:02 pm

It's an interesting question: Is the home we return to at adult awakening the same home we knew as infants, before delusion set in?

On the ultimate level, there are not two different homes. Then again, ultimately there IS no home, no we, no returning.

On the conventional level, where the question makes more sense, is infant pre-delusion nondual consciousness the same as adult post-delusion nondual consciousness?

Whatchas think?

My feeling is that all the quadzillions of individual consciousnesses in existence (panpsychist that I am!) co-create Universal Consciousness, kinda sorta like how the billions of individual Internet users co-create the global Internet. So, for me, home after awakening from delusion is not the same home as before (again, on the conventional level).
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Re: Birthright

Postby Rob X » Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:53 pm

rachMiel wrote:It's an interesting question: Is the home we return to at adult awakening the same home we knew as infants, before delusion set in?

On the ultimate level, there are not two different homes. Then again, ultimately there IS no home, no we, no returning.

On the conventional level, where the question makes more sense, is infant pre-delusion nondual consciousness the same as adult post-delusion nondual consciousness?

Whatchas think?


Imagine a ship sinks at sea and a one year old child (Jane) is washed up on an island. In the shock of the event she loses the little memory she had (no one was hurt in this thought experiment.)

There are no animals, birds and insects on this island and certainly no humans but luckily it has an abundance of fruit trees and plants and a supply of fresh water. Over the years Jane grows up with no conception of others, no parents, siblings, friends etc. She has no schooling/formal education or other forms of state indoctrination. She has no access to TV, social media and other forms of subtle conditioning. She does not form a language or any other kind of symbolic scheme.

I suspect that it's unlikely that Jane would form a conception of time/future/past. Since there are no others she may never form a conception of mine - not mine. It's possible that all there would be is a sense of THIS-ness. It's all THIS - NOW. Just THIS unfolding without a sense of separation from this unfolding. Her identity is not other than Reality and its procession.

This is (more or less) the natural state of oneness. Jane is awake - she was never asleep (so it's not true to say that she has awakened.)

Now (again) all this rests on my definition/sense of awake-ness being this felt-sense/gnosis of no-separation/oneness/THIS-ness. Others may have a conception of awake-ness/awakening involving other stuff such as special insights into the human condition or metaphysical knowledge as to the make up of reality or some sort of powers. These may require you to be 'grown-up'.

And obviously there are differences in the way the 'awakened state' manifests in the world dependent on individual traits/abilities/aptitude/inclinations etc. and this would be reflected in age difference.
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Re: Birthright

Postby rachMiel » Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:04 pm

(I wonder if Jane ever gets lonely?)

> there are differences in the way the 'awakened state' manifests in the world dependent on individual traits/abilities/aptitude/inclinations etc. and this would be reflected in age difference

And this is really what I'm talking about, the subjective experience of the awakened state. The feeling of home at birth and at awakening at 40 is different. First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. Are the two mountains the same? From whose/what perspective?
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Re: Birthright

Postby Rob X » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:03 pm

rachMiel wrote:(I wonder if Jane ever gets lonely?)

> there are differences in the way the 'awakened state' manifests in the world dependent on individual traits/abilities/aptitude/inclinations etc. and this would be reflected in age difference

And this is really what I'm talking about, the subjective experience of the awakened state. The feeling of home at birth and at awakening at 40 is different. First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is. Are the two mountains the same? From whose/what perspective?


Oh, Jane got off the island ten years ago - she married a bum, took to the bottle and now has a miserable existence working at Walmart in Pittsford.

That's not what I meant. I meant how it translates in the world in the types of deeds and acts performed. How it touches people etc.

When I had my first big 'just THIS' moment seventeen years ago. I sensed immediately that this was something that I'd known before when I was very young.

Obviously there must be a point at the early end of the spectrum where awake-ness is meaningless. I don't know where that might be - perhaps pre-sentient. (I wouldn't want to make a case for the sperm and ovum being enlightened beings. They may be fun to hang out with but I've heard that their satsangs are rubbish. (messy too) :shock:
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Re: Birthright

Postby runstrails » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:19 pm

hi guys,
Great stuff and wish I had more time to write more (but am at work). One thing that is missing here is the issue of brain development. Young children do have that felt sense of oneness but as their brain develop (and society presents it's conditioning) then separateness appears. But this happens with animals too. So it's part of all societies.

Rob wrote: When I had my first big 'just THIS' moment seventeen years ago. I sensed immediately that this was something that I'd known before when I was very young.


We always know this, as it's who we are--but as you say it get corrupted as we grow older. In Vedanta speak, it would be that your mind was clear enough to see the reflection of the self in it. The difference being, even though you experienced the self as a child you did not have the intellectual capacity to understand what was going on. At a later age (after frontal cortex is adequately developed), you start to understand what is happening: Simply, that we are 'this fundamental reality'.

The thing that I find funny these days is that once you understand that you are this fundamental, conscious reality---then it's so funny, because what else could you be????? Intellectually you are able to 'get it'. You were always the self---your intellect just figured it out ! That's why I feel that brain development and intellectual capacity are important considerations.

Going back to rM's post---some of us just got wired this way to have the intellectual desire to seek. I, for one, am so grateful for that.

Rob wrote: Oh, Jane got off the island ten years ago - she married a bum, took to the bottle and now has a miserable existence working at Walmart in Pittsford.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Love it! Great to have you back, Rob :D.

I'll write more over the weekend.
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