End game of consciousness?

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End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:01 pm

What do you think the end game of consciousness is? Could it be the awakening of all beings? Living the dream state while being aware of our true nature? Is our existence necessary for the consciousness in a way that one cannot be without the other?
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:47 am

What do you think the end game of consciousness is? Could it be the awakening of all beings? Living the dream state while being aware of our true nature?


End game? ...I personally don't think there is an end game. This world/universe will probably come to an end, at some point, as all "appearances" in awareness eventially do, but that doesn't mean it's the end of manifestion..forever...not like time is real...lol...cuz it's not!

I don't think all humans, which are the only ones with an intellect to be Self realized, will ever be awakened at the same time. The ego needs to be fully developed before it can be seen through. So, unless humanity stops procreating, awakening at the same time, will not happen. As there will be humans in all phases of life (and stages of ego), at any given time.

Is our existence necessary for the consciousness in a way that one cannot be without the other?


No. Awareness doesn't really upon manifestation. Manifestion (maya) is a shakti (power) within awareness. Therefore, it is dependant upon awareness for its "apparent" existence. Manifestion is awareness, but awareness is not the manifest world. As no object, nor the sum total of all objects can define you, awareness. Meaning objects (which are inert) are composed of, created from, pure awareness, but awareness, you, are independent of them. You, awareness pervade and shine upon all objects, if they have a subtle body, then you give them sentiency.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:49 am

dijmart wrote:
What do you think the end game of consciousness is? Could it be the awakening of all beings? Living the dream state while being aware of our true nature?


End game? ...I personally don't think there is an end game. This world/universe will probably come to an end, at some point, as all "appearances" in awareness eventially do, but that doesn't mean it's the end of manifestion..forever...not like time is real...lol...cuz it's not!

I don't think all humans, which are the only ones with an intellect to be Self realized, will ever be awakened at the same time. The ego needs to be fully developed before it can be seen through. So, unless humanity stops procreating, awakening at the same time, will not happen. As there will be humans in all phases of life (and stages of ego), at any given time.

Is our existence necessary for the consciousness in a way that one cannot be without the other?


No. Awareness doesn't really upon manifestation. Manifestion (maya) is a shakti (power) within awareness. Therefore, it is dependant upon awareness for its "apparent" existence. Manifestion is awareness, but awareness is not the manifest world. As no object, nor the sum total of all objects can define you, awareness. Meaning objects (which are inert) are composed of, created from, pure awareness, but awareness, you, are independent of them. You, awareness pervade and shine upon all objects, if they have a subtle body, then you give them sentiency.


Thank you for your interesting insight on this matter.

I personally believe that there is an end game. As you have pointed out this world/universe as we know it will probably come to an end some day. However, that does not mean the end of manifestation as you also pointed. There would always be manifestation of the consciousness as I believe that consciousness cannot be without there being a manifestation (although in theory it could be, but in actuality its just the way consciousness is/wanted). For that consciousness without any form of manifestation is no-thingness which means consciousness is not aware that it exists which cannot really happen.

That is not to say that consciousness is reliant upon manifestation. It is not. Consciousness is there before "there" exists and it would be there after "there" vanishes (should it vanish). But it is just the order of things. To illustrate in an example, if consciousness is the ultimate seer, it would always have an image (manifestation) to see. Even if that image is just its own awareness of itself.

Therefore, I come to conclude that there is an end game to consciousness (which is not equivalent to ending manifestation). To the contrary, I believe consciousness manifestations are endless and infinite and will always occur. However, since humans are the unique manifestation of consciousness which has the capabilities to realise itself (as you rightly pointed out), it would be through humans (whether in this form or any other lighter multidimensional manifestation) that the consciousness sees itself not by itself but through its unique creation(s). Because knowing oneself by his self is not the same as knowing oneself through another.

Again, to illustrate, you can see yourself and know yourself perfectly, but it is not the same if you see yourself through a mirror, which would be a unique seeing depending on the characteristics of the mirror itself.

In a way, true awakened humans are/would be the soul of this universe and/or any other dimensions, in which consciousness sees itself through it. We are the unique manifestation of consciousness which has the possibility to lose our self in ego and be completely/consciously aware of our true selves as consciousness. Hence, the egoistic evolution was/is a necessity to add this layer of awareness to the consciousness and for us to be able to live the dream state while being aware of our true nature.

As Eckhart puts it "And now the next step in the evolution is a return to the pre-egoic stage with the added dimension of consciously knowing your connectedness with the One, whereas before, they were connected with the one without even knowing it. It was a natural state of connectedness, but as we go beyond ego, we now knowingly return to the One consciously and thats the next stage."

So, buckle up it is going to be an endless and eternal ride :D
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby Mystic » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:01 am

Perhaps consciousness is an ability to choose between the voice of the ego or the voice of what Eckhart Tolle refers to as the "universal intelligence". The ego always has the loudest voice and the universal intelligence is the voice of stillness.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:09 pm

Mystic wrote:Perhaps consciousness is an ability to choose between the voice of the ego or the voice of what Eckhart Tolle refers to as the "universal intelligence". The ego always has the loudest voice and the universal intelligence is the voice of stillness.


Consciousness is no-thingness which has no shape, name, colour or image. Is the the one absolute truth. To be conscious is to see the universe and yourself through that reality. Universal intelligence expresses itself through you once you are aligned with that reality.

But again the topic discusses the purpose of it all. That is to say, why things are the way they are. Could be a question of little importance for many, but to me it provides clear insight of how things work and, therefore, roots me more in consciousness. It is like a journey that you take to experience the wonders and mysteries of a foreign land, which opens your eyes and broadens your perspective.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:50 pm

For that consciousness without any form of manifestation is no-thingness which means consciousness is not aware that it exists which cannot really happen
.

I wrote this on another thread recently it applies here-

"Awareness is "self knowing", self evident, self aware and doesn't require objects or the mind to know itself, as pure awareness.

Only when the power of Maya (Self ignorance) is operating does awareness "apparently" need a mind to know/see/witness the "apparent objects" (both subtle/gross) within the dharma field (Maya- a shaki/power, within awareness)."

So, the body/mind/sense complex is inert material, composed/created from awareness. You are not that, you are pure awareness.

Do you know you're aware? Yep. Do you know you exist? Yep. How do you know? You just simply know, because you ARE awareness and awareness is Self evident and Self aware. When awareness shines upon, prevades and illumines the mind, the thought "I AM" arises...this is the Self/awareness, prior to ego identifying "I AM" ...with...."I am this and that."

Awareness is limitless, conscious, existence. You are right that it is no-thing, but that doesn't mean it's "nothing".
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:07 am

dijmart wrote:
For that consciousness without any form of manifestation is no-thingness which means consciousness is not aware that it exists which cannot really happen
.

I wrote this on another thread recently it applies here-

"Awareness is "self knowing", self evident, self aware and doesn't require objects or the mind to know itself, as pure awareness.

Only when the power of Maya (Self ignorance) is operating does awareness "apparently" need a mind to know/see/witness the "apparent objects" (both subtle/gross) within the dharma field (Maya- a shaki/power, within awareness)."

So, the body/mind/sense complex is inert material, composed/created from awareness. You are not that, you are pure awareness.

Do you know you're aware? Yep. Do you know you exist? Yep. How do you know? You just simply know, because you ARE awareness and awareness is Self evident and Self aware. When awareness shines upon, prevades and illumines the mind, the thought "I AM" arises...this is the Self/awareness, prior to ego identifying "I AM" ...with...."I am this and that."

Awareness is limitless, conscious, existence. You are right that it is no-thing, but that doesn't mean it's "nothing".


Dijmart, consciousness/awareness is aware of itself without the need for the person. However, the moment consciousness/awareness knows itself, there is already an image created. I believe you refer to it as "apparent objects", but I like to use the term image because it is how knowledge appears in our minds.

This image of consciousness awareness is the purest lightest image that is different that all other images/apparent objects. In the same way the seer cannot be seen, consciousness/awareness cannot be seen without an image/manifestation.

I already illustrated this point in my earlier post as follows:

That is not to say that consciousness is reliant upon manifestation. It is not. Consciousness is there before "there" exists and it would be there after "there" vanishes (should it vanish). But it is just the order of things. To illustrate in an example, if consciousness is the ultimate seer, it would always have an image (manifestation) to see. Even if that image is just its own awareness of itself.


If that is not understood, then you may image a space of emptiness. Most people would create a picture of vast emptiness, but that is not truly an empty picture. An empty picture is no picture at all, it has no dimensions or characteristics.

Consciousness is no-thingness that cannot be imaged seen truly/directly. But it is known through its manifestation, the lightest and purest kind.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:34 am

Dijmart, consciousness/awareness is aware of itself without the need for the person.


Correct.

The moment consciousness/awareness knows itself, there is already an image created. I believe you refer to it as "apparent objects", but I like to use the term image because it is how knowledge appears in our minds.


Not correct to your first sentence, unless in that sentence you are referring to the image being within the mind of the apparent person. If not, then you are confusing pure awareness aware of "itself" vs. awareness being aware of "apparent objects".

Pure awareness doesn't have a mind to know objects in the relative sense, so that function can only be performed by the mind. The mind has the capacity to be the impersonal witness. As it is illumined and enlivened by awareness itself.

As far as my "lingo", the usage of "apparent" objects, is from a Vedanta teacher I've been working with, so, I will probably continue to use that term to describe subjective/objective object within Mithya (world of illusion, it exists, but isn't real). I'm not opposed to saying image if it's meant to describe a picture appearing within the mind after seeing an object with the visual senses. Example, I visualize my tv, it appears as an image within the mind, but it's "actually" an "apparent" object because although the image exists, its not ultimately real...it's " apparently" real.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:53 pm

Pure awareness doesn't have a mind to know objects in the relative sense, so that function can only be performed by the mind. The mind has the capacity to be the impersonal witness. As it is illumined and enlivened by awareness itself.


If I understood you correctly, you are saying that consciousness does not have awareness of its "manifestations/images/apparent objects" directly but only through a medium (being the "apparent person")?

If so, what are the characteristics of the "apparent person" and the difference between it and other "apparent objects"?
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:07 pm

If I understood you correctly, you are saying that consciousness does not have awareness of its "manifestations/images/apparent objects" directly but only through a medium (being the "apparent person")?


Bingo!

You may want to read the posts between me and Sighclone, on the 3rd page, of this thread-

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13751&p=127316#p127265

But, here a portion from one of my posts-


"Awareness itself doesn't have a mind to think or know (it's called the "knower and witness" only in a figurative sense), the inert mind -plus- awareness, can think, know, witness and discriminate. An analogy would be if the brain was a computer, the mind the software and awareness the electricity that makes it all run (pure awareness is impersonal and attributeless, so I'm not saying it is energy). If you took away any of the pieces to the computer (hardware, software or electricity), the computer wouldn't work. Same with experiencing objects (anything subtle/gross) you need- pure awareness, the mind (subtle body) and the brain (gross body), without all three there is no thinking, knowing, discriminating, etc"



If so, what are the characteristics of the "apparent person" and the difference between it and other "apparent objects"?


First thing, apparent objects are awareness, in the sense that they are composed of, created from awareness, so there is nothing but awareness, as awareness is nondual. However, objects are inert material, theyre nothing but a projection upon awareness itself.

So, all object are inert, we've established that, but theyre not just created/composed of awareness, also pure awareness shines upon/within and pervades every-thing.

There are sentient and insentient apparent objects. Those with sentiency are called jivas- trees/plants/animals/bugs/humans, they all have a subtle body. Some are very rudimentary and others very complex. The only subtle body that is sophisticated, has an intellect and therefore an ego, are human beings.

Awareness shines upon/within/pervades the subtle body, that's what is the cause of sentiency. If a Jiva person has a relatively clear, quiet and stable mind, then they can apprehend the "reflection" of awareness within the subtle body, which is mirror like and has reflective properties. This apprehension comes through as a thought of limitlessness, unity, oneness, one can apprehend this is ones true nature.

Human beings are the only sentient beings that can apprehend and assimilate this knowledge and know they ARE the Self (awareness).

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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:48 pm

Awareness itself doesn't have a mind to think or know (it's called the "knower and witness" only in a figurative sense)


I cannot agree with that. Consciousness is no-thingness. Therefore, its multiplicity is not real. It is only apparent manifestation. The first manifestation/apparent object of the consciousness is its awareness of itself creating the first apparent object/image, which is an exact reflection of itself. Once this happens, there would be two "awareness-es" here. Consciousness awareness of itself by itself (inner) and consciousness awareness of itself through its image/first apparent object (outer). Subsequent apparent objects are in a way shaping of previous apparent objects starting from the first apparent objection which is an exact reflection of pure consciousness.

To give an example, if we assume 1000 is consciousness, then its first apparent object would be 999. Then 999 would also have an awareness creating another apparent objection becoming 998 and so on. Now all the numbers are just apparent as they are all in reality 1000. However, this evolution of consciousness would not exist but for the consciousness being aware of itself.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:44 pm

I cannot agree with that.


Remember I was referring to pure awareness, knowing/witnessing apparent "objects", which are nothing but awareness itself. So, to pure awareness there's nothing happening. All it knows is itself. That's the view point of pure awareness...without being associated with a body/mind/sense complex.

When associated with B/M/S complex, awareness has "apparently" forgotten itself, as awareness, through the ignorance of Maya (illusion). This is the view point of the jiva/person, which essentially is nothing but awareness, as awareness is nondual. However, the intellect/mind (illumined by awareness) identifies with "apparent" objects, instead of itself, awareness.

As I've said before pure awareness is aware of itself, as it is Self knowing and Self evident, when "not" associated with apparent objects.


Therefore, its multiplicity is not real. It is only apparent manifestation.


Yes, I am well aware.


The first manifestation/apparent object of the consciousness is its awareness of itself creating the first apparent object/image, which is an exact reflection of itself.


Ack, we would now need to go into maya (shakti/power within awareness) and Isvara.. and how Isvara (god) actually wields Maya (ignorance/illusion) without being deluded itself. Sorry but I'm not a teacher of Vedanta and I'm afraid I would cause further confusion going down this road at this point in time.

I have no problem with your view being different then mine, so take what you like and leave the rest. :D

Sorry if this post doesn't flow well? I'm trying to write this and work..lol

Also, I don't really follow your logic when you talk about 2 awareness's and so on...

There is only ONE awareness always, any thing else is only "apparent" and happens in/to, awareness itself, including Isvara and Jiva/person.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby maaref » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:01 am

I agree with your post. I just think we are looking from different perspectives.

I don't really follow your logic when you talk about 2 awareness's and so on...


Imagine if pure consciousness was a dot, when that dot is aware of itself, this awareness creates an image/apparent objects. Now you have to two dots (the "real dot"/consciousness and the "apparent dot"/consciousness awareness/reflection). As the new dot is "apparent" and is different than the "real" dot, you would have two awareness-es; (i) the awareness of the real dot of itself (which created the apparent dot) and (ii) the apparent dot awareness of itself and, therefore, its connection with the real dot. This is the start of apparent objects and evolution of consciousness (which is one and non-dual always).

To continue with the evolution (if you are interested), once the apparent dot is aware of itself through the pure consciousness (the real dot), it "discovers" the possibility to give/shape awareness (forming apparent objects). Such new awareness creates a third dot (which I call the giver). This "third dot"/giver (adds another apparent layer/attribute to consciousness), setting the bases to further evolve the consciousness through "discovering and giving" other names, attributes and shapes (i.e. apparent objects/persons) that manifests into "our" world.
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Re: End game of consciousness?

Postby dijmart » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:58 am

Imagine if pure consciousness was a dot, when that dot is aware of itself, this awareness creates an image/apparent objects.


So, I will attempt to respond...this may be confusing!!!

Pure awareness (Brahman) has within it an apparent power (a shakti), called Maya (illusion/deluding power). When Brahman is conditioned by Maya it becomes Isvara. So, awareness plus, Maya becomes Isvara or God who is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the "apparent" manifest world. Which is a spontaneous "projection" of awareness itself, that appears upon/within Brahman/awareness.

So, regarding your quote above.... it's not that Brahman (pure awareness) intentionally "creates" apparent objects, it's because of Maya, which conditions awareness. However, this power is none other then awareness itself. Why does this happen? Who knows, but seeing that Brahman is limitless...it wouldn't be limitless if it didn't have the power to delude itself!

Now you have to two dots (the "real dot"/consciousness and the "apparent dot"/consciousness awareness/reflection).


I would say, you still have one dot, pure awareness and "apparent/reflected" awareness appearing within/upon Brahman, therefore it's nothing but Brahman/awareness, in its essential nature.. Brahman is just another name for pure awareness.

As the new dot is "apparent" and is different than the "real" dot, you would have two awareness-es;


You're correct that "apparent" is different, in a sense. It's awareness, as in its created/composed of awareness, but it's inert, not conscious, in and of itself. So, you still have only one awareness. To lend an "apparent" object sentiency, it must have a subtle body, to reflect awareness within it, but it's STILL the same "one" awareness. It just has been "modified" by Maya. Like if you add food coloring to water, you haven't changed the fact that water is H2O, you have just modified it.

it "discovers" the possibility to give/shape awareness (forming apparent objects).


As stated, Isvara (awareness, plus Maya) is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the "apparent" manifest world.

(forming apparent objects). Such new awareness creates a third dot (which I call the giver). This "third dot"/giver (adds another apparent layer/attribute to consciousness), setting the bases to further evolve the consciousness through "discovering and giving" other names, attributes and shapes (i.e. apparent objects/persons) that manifests into "our" world


Not sure what you mean by this and don't know if Vedanta has a parallel to this line of thought. Unless, you are referring to the Jiva/person. As the jiva has its own internal world, depending on how Mithya (apparent world) is perceived by the jiva/person.

So, hope some or any of that made some sense! :)

I've tried to put a description of any Sanskrit word usage :wink:
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