Just for a moment

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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:35 pm

Hi Onceler,

I haven't even had one tiny opening or insight into the nature of anything......other than who I am and that is mundane and plain as a piece of paper.


Yes, it is "plain" in a sense, also full, whole and complete. What else do you want to know? You already know who your are, which means youre Self realized, the rest is Mithya (apparent). Sure, there are the ontological orders of reality, Isvara (god), vasanas (past impressions), gunas ( the 3 energies) and how they work together and all that jazz, but if you don't desire to know this knowledge, then so be it! If you do, then study Vedanta or whatever else.

There's no need for spiritual "experiences" to be enlightened, it's Self knowledge that removes ignorance of who you really are. I've had spiritual experiences and when they were over ....5 minutes later, I was still as ignorant as ever.


It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year. The changes are slow but steady and the first several years were quite difficult as my body and mind resisted the transition.


In Vedanta, after Self realization comes Self actualization (the assimilation of Self knowledge to all areas of one's life).

You know how to play your "apparent" role as Onceler, but stand with conviction in your true identity as the Self. Therefore, as I said before, pain and pleasure persist, but you no longer suffer.

Self actualization can take years..or not, it depends. Once fully actualized (not perfect, mind you) then you have Moksha (liberation).


If you still don't think this applies to you, then either you just don't see it or maybe it really doesnt apply, either way, as long as suffering has ended it's all good. :D

As far as the "far out", bells and whistles enlightenment experiences...who cares? For reasons I already stated.... and for those who didn't go back to being ignorant, like Tolle, he still had his time "assimilating" the knowledge gained during the experience . About 2 years on a park bench and admittedly reading many spiritual texts.

Ok, I'm done! :lol:
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:33 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Onceler wrote:It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year.

Sounds like a really good path for you. :-) The proof is in the pudding, yes?


Short answer, yes.

I just lost 4 posts in a row of varying lucidity and meaning. So I'll give you the short version. I wasn't offended by your first post at all. Just probably insecure about my experience, but also feeling a growing confidence in my experience. Hopefully I wasn't offensive in return.

Secondly, I may be an idealist, but I have a growing belief in spiritual technologies which promote a quicker turn around in transformation. Let's set the bar lower and find things that work in a matter of years and not a lifetime. Our survival depends on it. It's spiritual and psychological transformation for the 99%. Let's recognize the transformative power of the simple act of seeing who you are, the subtle but powerful reduction of fear and conditioning, and stop seeking some kind of ultimate resolution of ego and identity resulting in a magical state of being that only a few (maybe) attain.

We humans are destructive creatures highly condition to consume everything in sight, as well as the unseen; emotions, ideas etc. We have to find a way to narrow and lessen the karmic swath we cut through this world, while staying engaged in life. Lessen our physical and spiritual consumptive footprint.

That's all. It's simple.....and I suspect this is what you were trying to say.
Last edited by Onceler on Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:43 pm

dijmart wrote:Hi Onceler,

I haven't even had one tiny opening or insight into the nature of anything......other than who I am and that is mundane and plain as a piece of paper.


Yes, it is "plain" in a sense, also full, whole and complete. What else do you want to know? You already know who your are, which means youre Self realized, the rest is Mithya (apparent). Sure, there are the ontological orders of reality, Isvara (god), vasanas (past impressions), gunas ( the 3 energies) and how they work together and all that jazz, but if you don't desire to know this knowledge, then so be it! If you do, then study Vedanta or whatever else.

There's no need for spiritual "experiences" to be enlightened, it's Self knowledge that removes ignorance of who you really are. I've had spiritual experiences and when they were over ....5 minutes later, I was still as ignorant as ever.


It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year. The changes are slow but steady and the first several years were quite difficult as my body and mind resisted the transition.


In Vedanta, after Self realization comes Self actualization (the assimilation of Self knowledge to all areas of one's life).

You know how to play your "apparent" role as Onceler, but stand with conviction in your true identity as the Self. Therefore, as I said before, pain and pleasure persist, but you no longer suffer.

Self actualization can take years..or not, it depends. Once fully actualized (not perfect, mind you) then you have Moksha (liberation).


If you still don't think this applies to you, then either you just don't see it or maybe it really doesnt apply, either way, as long as suffering has ended it's all good. :D

As far as the "far out", bells and whistles enlightenment experiences...who cares? For reasons I already stated.... and for those who didn't go back to being ignorant, like Tolle, he still had his time "assimilating" the knowledge gained during the experience . About 2 years on a park bench and admittedly reading many spiritual texts.

Ok, I'm done! :lol:


Thanks, dijmart. This makes sense and I appreciate your effort on my behalf. Still not comfortable with the end goal and it's many definitions and interpretations.

Thanks!
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:10 pm

Onceler wrote:
rachMiel wrote:
Onceler wrote:It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year.

Sounds like a really good path for you. :-) The proof is in the pudding, yes?


Short answer, yes.

I just lost 4 posts in a row of varying lucidity and meaning.

The universe gives ... and the universe takes?
So I'll give you the short version. I wasn't offended by your first post at all. Just probably insecure about my experience, but also feeling a growing confidence in my experience. Hopefully I wasn't offensive in return.

Not offensive, maybe just a tad defensive (?) ... which is what made me think I had said something that offended you.
Secondly, I may be an idealist, but I have a growing belief in spiritual technologies which promote a quicker turn around in transformation. Let's set the bar lower and find things that work in a matter of years and not a lifetime. Our survival depends on it. It's spiritual and psychological transformation for the 99%. Let's recognize the transformative power of the simple act of seeing who you are, the subtle but powerful reduction of fear and conditioning, and stop seeking some kind of ultimate resolution of ego and identity resulting in a magical state of being that only a few (maybe) attain.

We humans are destructive creatures highly condition to consume everything in sight, as well as the unseen; emotions, ideas etc. We have to find a way to narrow and lessen the karmic swath we cut through this world, while staying engaged in life. Lessen our physical and spiritual consumptive footprint.

I thought more about what I mean by it and IT.

Getting it is primarily an action of the intellect, it's understanding the logic of a teaching, seeing the correctness in it. Getting IT is a whole-being thing, intellect and heart and feelings and soul. Getting it is a thought/behavior changer, getting IT is a life changer.

And just in case it sounds like I'm saying "Ta-da! I've transcended it and moved on wholly to IT!" I'm SOOOOOO not. It's a constant struggle for me, to get out of my head and open my heart. But I'm gettin' there ... :-)
Last edited by rachMiel on Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:14 pm

Hi Onceler,

Still not comfortable with the end goal and it's many definitions and interpretations


How can one seek something, if we don't know what we're seeking? How will you know when you"ve found it?

I think we have to talk honestly about our experiences with a minimum of buzz words and cliches


Language is what it is..Vedanta doesn't use buzz words, they use Sanskrit with actual definitions. I know it's a foreign language, so I use the best English translation, depending on how it's used. Vedanta's not the only teaching that can awaken someone, but I like it for its clarity.

I
think this thing is still evolving into a simpler more accessible cognitive/emotive technology. It has to or we're screwed.....


The problem is that there is no one "fits all" teaching. I looked into Sherman before, didn't do anything for me, but it worked for you. Vedanta works for me, but may not work for someone else.

Most of the population could care less about spirituality. Without the desire to know and do the work then they will not realize their true nature, but it's fine, as they are awareness whether they know it or not and will in some lifetime realize it, just maybe not "this" life.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:37 pm

I thought more about what I mean by it and IT.


This is exactly why Vedanta uses specific words, to mean the same thing, regardless of the teacher. As long as they are teaching traditional Vedanta. So, there isn't this confusion.

Then, you just kinda made up a definition of what ..it and IT means a few posts later. Which then others can disagree with and add more confusion. No wonder why Onceler doesn't know if he has "IT", because this type of wordage doesn't bring clarity.

No offense, just my two cents!
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:32 am

Specific words are great if your goal is to communicate precise things clearly ... and if these words exist. All groups have their specialized vocabulary and jargon for this: Advaita, Buddhism, Catholicism, academia, science, real estate, etc.

But what if the thing you want to communicate is vague or elusive, and no existing word really nails it? This is how I feel about getting it and getting IT. I guess I hoped people would understand more or less what I meant, that you can know things ... and KNOW things. (There I go again!) But, yes, being imprecise invites misunderstanding.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:16 am

, that you can know things ... and KNOW things. (There I go again!)


Lol, you do make me laugh! Haha...
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Mystic » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:13 am

We all have the perfect stillness within. Perfect peace and stillness is with us always but covered over by the veil of the unconscious or "ego".

The most fundamental law of reality is the law of cause and effect. Cause contains effect in the same way as the general contains the specific and the abstract contains the concrete. Therefore, Mind contains reality. The dualistic mind is the divided mind required for navigation through the perceptual world.

It can be useful to categorize consciousness into levels as an abstraction or a theoretical construct for heuristic purposes :)


Super-conscious

Conscious

Unconscious

Subconscious

...

God, or Source, exists as Subconscious and Super-conscious.

Unconscious is where ego(darkness, ignorance) resides

Conscious is your waking conscious and has is the ability of choice.

Revelations come from the Super-conscious

Miracles come from the Subconscious

And the most fundamental law of reality is the law of cause and effect.

Your soul is associated with the record of all the cause-effect relationships of your many life-times.

Beings incarnate on the material plane so as to improve their record (soul)

Your spirit is your inner Christ and is the twin of Jesus, Buddha, enlightened beings, etc.

As a temporal sequence, the universe is evolving and we are part of that evolution...

Inner peace is with you ...always




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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:43 am

Emaho!
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:31 pm

I agree with rachMiel, and what I think was intended by Rob X in his original post, we don't need words. To answer your question, dijmart, we know we've found it when we stop looking, like the car keys.....although I've been known to look for my glasses when they're propped on my forehead.

I think it's very simple and I think we would all mostly agree.....we have to see, feel, sense, or in some way intuit who we really are. Once we intuit who we are, the transformation begins instantly. I believe this deeply. That's the key, the bottom line. Sherman simply found a very direct way to do this based on Ramana Maharishi's self inquiry. I'm not saying it's the only way, but I do think we need to simplify the process and then have a good road map as to what to expect in the coming years. An aside to you, dijmart; how do you know Sherman's technique didn't work for you? It took me about three years to understand what happened to me and I didn't have any other practice I could ascribe the changes to.

We don't have time for prolonged enlightenment. I'm a idealist, I guess, but I believe this thing can evolve, or rather devolve, from the beautiful complexity of the wisdom teachings to a modern day hack, shortcut, sword to the mind. We need something that works in this lifetime, in a matter of months. Something we can simply teach our kids, our neighbors, our colleagues, our boss. Something that will be taught in schools, in boardrooms during that mindfulness presentation, at the end of yoga sessions, at a Trump rally, while waiting for your flight. It has to be free, open sourced, something no one can claim, write endless books about, and obsfiscate. A psycho/spiritual Trojan horse virus that would sink past bristling defenses to the core of who we are, awareness, and implode, reverse engineered to bring down all those calcified fear induced defenses leaving us open to life and evolving into our humanness.

My challenge to everyone in this forum is to distill your spiritual philosophy down to something you can describe in 100 words or less. A spiritual elevator speech. Something you could teach a child. I believe there is a huge amount of wisdom here. We can pool together and do this!
Last edited by Onceler on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:07 pm

Onceler, enjoyed your posting. And I understand what you're getting at with the urgency of change, particularly after the dreaded day (that shall go down in world-historical infamy!) 11/9/2016, the day the US of A got Trumped. (By the way, our very own Eckhart Tolle does imo a wonderful job, perhaps the best I've ever run into, of presenting a simple, clear, eminently doable path to awakening. Witness the newbies who post to this forum, people who after a few months, weeks, or even days are starting to wake up to what's behind the curtain.)

I encourage you to create a new thread for people to share their 100-words-or-less worldviews. It's a great exercise, to be able to capture and streamline your (current) way of viewing the world. And it would make, I think, great reading ... very engaging and even inspiring stories to share around the campfire. :-)

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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:20 pm

I think I'm the one in the hoody, to the left.....
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:38 pm

Onceler wrote:My challenge to everyone in this forum is to distill your spiritual philosophy down to something you can describe in 100 words or less. A spiritual elevator speech. Something you could teach a child. I believe there is a huge amount of wisdom here. We can pool together and do this!

Not to rain on a genuinely good idea, but this has already been done in various forms. Maybe the most obvious example is 'as ye sow, so shall ye reap'. It's simply stating the Law of Attraction. Of course the statement is not the understanding and there in lies the value of each one of us exploring the search for a simple guide to life for ourselves. There is something in our unique versions of discovery that transcends all the pointers scattered throughout the world - including what I write here. Discovery is a very personal endeavor.

So here it is in less than 100 words:

Our personal thoughts, ideas and beliefs grow with our attention into our experience of reality. Change these factors and our experience of life and reality changes.

Happiness is directly linked to our Greater Nature or Beingness. Align our human perspective with this Greater Beingness and a natural joy becomes manifest. It's who we really are.

Our emotional/feeling nature is our God given guide to alignment and an enjoyable life experience. Learn to navigate emotions and clearly perceive life's feeling qualities. Doing so offers a path to a great life.

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