Just for a moment

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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:32 pm

Onceler wrote:I guess I don't get IT.

The funny thing is that I don't mind. Life is incredibly interesting without peace and love 24/7. It seems peace, love, and generosity would displace other experience? I enjoy the occasional anger, hissy fit, melancholy, selfish moment, discomfiture, grousing, gossiping, haughtiness, etc. Perhaps not. I know those moods will pass quickly and they are kinda fun....definitely not who I am.

Frankly, feeling peace, love, and generosity on a consistent basis sounds kinda boring. I feel calm, even when I'm upset or stressed. Does that count?

I'm sorry if I offended or upset you with all my it/IT talk, Onceler. I'm not judging anyone, and I'm not trying to proclaim any Truths. This happens to be my current state of grokking what's (really) going on. It probably contradicts what I said earlier in the forum, and will probably contradict what I say later. Just sittin' around the campfire sharing my story of the moment with all of yas. :-)
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:36 pm

Rob X wrote:
runstrails wrote:Hi Rob and rM--you guys are my favorite neos :D.

Hmmm, that's a bit of a double-edged one, RT. It's nice to be a favourite... but neo? That's a term that is usually intended as pejorative (not by you in this instance, I'm sure. :D)

I just assumed she meant:

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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Rob X » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:32 pm

runstrails wrote:
Rob wrote: Hmmm, that's a bit of a double-edged one, RT. It's nice to be a favourite... but neo? That's a term that is usually intended as pejorative (not by you in this instance, I'm sure. :D)

Rob, no edge at all. I meant it with the utmost affection. I enjoy your posts. Your wisdom encompasses non-traditional paths--that's all I meant :D.


I knew that, RT. :D
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Rob X » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:34 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Rob X wrote:
runstrails wrote:Hi Rob and rM--you guys are my favorite neos :D.

Hmmm, that's a bit of a double-edged one, RT. It's nice to be a favourite... but neo? That's a term that is usually intended as pejorative (not by you in this instance, I'm sure. :D)

I just assumed she meant:

Image


:D
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby ashley72 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:38 pm

Rob X wrote:Just for a moment, put the fancy concepts to one side - forget the metaphysics, the dogma and the theory and wake up to what is actually going on.

Move out of mind and simply look; here, now, THIS… Again, forget about that being yet another tired nonduality cliche and actually look to where it points… feel it... THIS that's going on, this living happening of existence… unmissable Reality itself. That's all this is about - almost too obvious.

Our predicament is that when we get old enough to be hypnotised by thought and language we start to believe that there can be a fragment of this ineffable Reality that is somehow separate and independent of it - and since we appear to be looking out from this fragment we conclude that an isolated fragment is what we are.

And yet we never move from our home. Life simply happening. That's what this is… that's what you are.


But Rob your contradicting yourself in the process of sharing these esoteric ideas... can't you see there is a profuse thinker present in order to get your point across & a watcher as well?

"Move out of mind you say."... Well the concept mind is only an analogy of what (the watcher + thinker) means. In my book the watcher is as much the mind as the thinker is. You can't stop the thinker as much as you can't stop being a watcher. You can't in any way divorce yourself from either aspect of what we call mind. The very post your writing is evidence of that.

What is wrong with thinker, what is wrong contemplating, what becomes better by seeing that you can be observant of thoughts? ... nothing changes. There is still an unbreakable marriage between the two.

Tolle declares he now nonlonger identifies with his thoughts, yet profusely spends his days selling everyone his take on the power of the watcher... come on don't fall for the absolute fakeness of it all.

Tolle is more identified with his thoughts than most. He's got a publish ideology or worldview... that denounces the thinking mind.
Last edited by ashley72 on Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Rob X » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:40 pm

Onceler wrote:I like that deeper yes concept. That feels right. Not only does the "stuff" not evaporate, but I'm saying it won't and shouldn't. It's life. There seem to be two ways in non-dual thinking. Suffering (I believe it's called samsara?) or an enlightened, transcendent way. I am coming to see a third way......given that very few people achieve enlightenment and transcendence and given that suffering is not a good option, in fact it kinda sucks.

The third way ( and maybe this is what the Buddha called the middle way) is a release from fear and suffering and doesn't involve transcendence, but becoming more fully human. Feeling and thinking and reacting in more or less the typical fashion, but understanding that these thought, emotions and reactions are not you, because you've inquired, looked and found who you are.....felt you. So this frees you to go thru an ordinary human life freely open to the amazing wash of experience, not filtering for fear and dread, and accepting what comes as necessary and fundamental experience. Joy, pain, and the many nuances of this crazy world.

How do you know you're on the third path? Not by peace, love, and generosity as those transcendent states are of the enlightened.....maybe I don't have a good handle on that path, but rather there is an end to searching and seeking. Let's use the car key analogy. When we find our car keys, we immediately stop seeking, right? Foolish to run through the house looking for them while they are in you hand. Even more foolish to get into the car and drive somewhere to look for you keys.

I think you know you're on the third way when you stop seeking. Seeking transcendence, joy, peace, a solution, etc. you open to life, and it's certainly a transition as Ashley pointed out. You become fully human, knowing that there is nothing at stake and we can simply experience the grand parade, in full spectrum.

This is my growing experience and I wouldn't trade it for transcendence at this point.


Nicely put Onceler. I'm not sure that blissful transcendence can ever come in more than short lived phases. And even on my most serene and expansive days I'm still a bit grumpy in the mornings until I've had a couple of mugs of tea. :D
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Rob X » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:57 pm

ashley72 wrote:
Rob X wrote:Just for a moment, put the fancy concepts to one side - forget the metaphysics, the dogma and the theory and wake up to what is actually going on.

Move out of mind and simply look; here, now, THIS… Again, forget about that being yet another tired nonduality cliche and actually look to where it points… feel it... THIS that's going on, this living happening of existence… unmissable Reality itself. That's all this is about - almost too obvious.

Our predicament is that when we get old enough to be hypnotised by thought and language we start to believe that there can be a fragment of this ineffable Reality that is somehow separate and independent of it - and since we appear to be looking out from this fragment we conclude that an isolated fragment is what we are.

And yet we never move from our home. Life simply happening. That's what this is… that's what you are.


But Rob your contradicting yourself in the process of sharing these esoteric ideas... can't you see there is a profuse thinker present in order to get your point across & a watcher as well?

"Move out of mind you say."... Well the concept mind is only an analogy of what (the watcher + thinker) means. In my book the watcher is as much the mind as the thinker is. You can't stop the thinker as much as you can't stop being a watcher. You can't in any way divorce yourself from either aspect of what we call mind. The very post your writing is evidence of that.

What is wrong with thinker, what is wrong contemplating, what becomes better by seeing that you can be observant of thoughts? ... nothing changes. There is still an unbreakable marriage between the two.

Tolle declares he now nonlonger identifies with his thoughts, yet profusely spends his days selling everyone his take on the power of the watcher... come on don't fall for the absolute fakeness of it all.

Tolle is more identified with his thoughts than most. He's got a publish ideology or worldview... that denounces the thinking mind.


Hi Ash

When I say 'move out of mind and simply look' I'm referring to the analytic, reflective aspect of mind (left hemisphere processing.) That should be evident by the tone of the rest of the post where I suggest putting concepts and theory to one side.

Of course I'm not suggesting that we can stop mentation - I agree, anyone who thinks that that is possible may be deluded.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby ashley72 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:00 pm

Tolle found a captive audience because people suffer with troublesome thinking & the troublesome nervous & emotional responses that follow scary thought that in turn keep stimulating uncomfortable & unwanted responses.

Thoughts are stimulates for action. Without the thinking mind to stimulate nervous action we wouldn't achieve the empires we have built. Tolle wouldn't have twitter & facebook to spread his ideas. Lol

You don't need to denounce the thinking mind because it has the capacity to scare you and bring about unwanted or inappropriate nervous responses or panic. Rather you understand what part of the cycle (the watcher + thinker) needs curing. As it turns out, when we struggle with troublesome thoughts, it's the continued belief that these thoughts are dangerous & need to be avoided which causes the most trouble. You need to realize that scary thoughts can be both a response to danger as well as a stimulate if we perceive the response as danger itself. In other words, panic is nothing more than something getting stuck in a loop and causing instability. Neither the watcher or the thinker are to blame, but rather our lack of understanding of the relationship between what is a response and what acts as a stimulus in the cycle of thinking & watching.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:56 pm

Hi Onceler,


Not only does the "stuff" not evaporate, but I'm saying it won't and shouldn't. It's life.


It can be negated (seen as false/"apparent"), as not Self, but that doesn't mean the "stuff" won't be experienced. I think its all okay. Pain and pleasure persists (as they say in Vedanta), but "suffering" (dukkha) ends, because although the "stuff" exists, its not ultimately real. Nothing can be added to or subtracted from you, awareness. So there is an undertone of peace, regardless of what's happening.

Samsara- (for those interested) can mean different things, but essentially it means "birth, death, reincarnation". It's often used in this way, "One is bound by the "wheel of Samsara". Meaning, unless the mind (illumined by awareness), is free from Self ignorance, one is bound to this cycle of birth, death, reincarnation, until such time that one has realized them self, as "the Self" and has assimilated this knowledge. So, the wheel of Samsara can be equated to the "wheel of suffering", because until you know your true nature you think it's real and suffer accordingly.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:51 am

Good answer, dijmart. You came at what I was trying to say from a different angle. What do you think an end to seeking indicates? I've been trying to puzzle this out.....as I was a near professional seeker all my life. Now I could care less, and, although I maintain an interest in things spiritual, there isn't the manic urgency of finding 'it'. I'm certainly not enlightened by any reckoning and have no strong experiences of of kensho, satori or anything else remotely transcendent. I'm just satisfied and not suffering in a plain, ordinary way. It's nice. Plain. Lacking in drama. I'm thinking that if this can happen to me, pretty much an emotional basket case all my life, it could happen to anyone. It's available and just takes some focus and brief inquiry.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby runstrails » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:22 am

Onceler wrote: but understanding that these thought, emotions and reactions are not you, because you've inquired, looked and found who you are.....felt you. So this frees you to go thru an ordinary human life freely open to the amazing wash of experience, not filtering for fear and dread, and accepting what comes as necessary and fundamental experience. Joy, pain, and the many nuances of this crazy world.

Hi Onceler,
Reading what you have written above, I would say that you are enlightened. Enlightenment is simply a correction of the fundamental ignorance (of our true self) which besets most of us. Even more, since you are not suffering (regardless of what happens in your life) I would say that you also have moksha or liberation.

Onceler wrote: I'm certainly not enlightened by any reckoning and have no strong experiences of of kensho, satori or anything else remotely transcendent. I'm just satisfied and not suffering in a plain, ordinary way. It's nice. Plain. Lacking in drama.

As I said above, using objective criteria you are enlightened. Transcendental experiences are just that---experiences. They do not equal enlightenment and very often they are a distraction from self-realization. Enlightenment is not a state of transcendence or a state of nirvana or samadhi. These states come and go within you. Enlightenment is simply self-knowledge. That is, knowledge of your true self. I know you don't like to think of yourself as enlightened or use that word--but it's really necessary to demystify it, I think. There is so much bs in the spiritual world that enlightenment is some kind of mind blowing event! It's not.

Onceler wrote: I'm thinking that if this can happen to me, pretty much an emotional basket case all my life, it could happen to anyone. It's available and just takes some focus and brief inquiry.

I love your humility and this sends an important message to our newbies on the forum. Enlightenment is available to anyone who is willing to put in the work, has focus and can stick with inquiry. In Vedanta these qualifications are dispassion, discrimination, discipline and sincere desire. A good teacher or a teaching is also important, of course.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby runstrails » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:39 am

rM wrote: If your moment to moment life is grounded in peace and generosity and love, you're getting IT.

I like this, rM. Many of us know our true nature as the self/awareness/reality/THIS (or whatever we call it ).
However, in order to enjoy the fruits of this knowledge, having a peaceful mind, free from agitation is essential. A peaceful mind allows the self to shine through and the experiential feeling is that of peace, love, bliss. This bliss is what you truly are and this bliss is what we chase when we try to have transcendental experiences. But it is always available to us when our mind is peaceful. So, yes, when your mind is peaceful you are getting IT.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby dijmart » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:51 am

Hi Onceler,

I second what Runtrails has said, it was "perfect" and I think you really needed to hear it, because I think from what you've been saying in your posts, along with this-

"What do you think an end to seeking indicates?"

It indicates for "you" that you are enlightened and like RT said, since you are not suffering, you most likely have Moksha.


Onceler wrote: I'm thinking that if this can happen to me, pretty much an emotional basket case all my life, it could happen to anyone.


Ha, you and me both, Onceler. My mind use to torture the hell out of me...I've been in a psych hospital 3 times and had a suicide attempt to prove it!... no fun!.. Glad that shits over!
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby Onceler » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:00 pm

Ha, really? I won't even give credence to me being enlightened! I've read the books, the many accounts and I haven't even had one tiny opening or insight into the nature of anything......other than who I am and that is mundane and plain as a piece of paper.

I think it's more interesting than that. As I said, I have the growing conviction that there is a third way. It's not difficult, takes no practice, and is available to all......a robot or rebirth where a basic sense of fear and distrust of the world is eliminated and slowly over time there is a reintegration of mind and spirit, to become more fully human. I can't claim this as my own idea, as it's John Sherman's, but I can claim it's profound effect on my life and the notion that it's different than enlightenment in the traditional sense. No bells and whistles, no experiences or states, kenshos or satoris, just a movement of the mind away from fear toward a filter-free acceptance of life as it streams at you. It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year. The changes are slow but steady and the first several years were quite difficult as my body and mind resisted the transition.

I suppose if I wanted to pursue enlightenment, seeing into the true nature of things, I could, but I've honestly lost interest in this once burning desire.
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Re: Just for a moment

Postby rachMiel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:31 pm

Onceler wrote:It's been 5 years since I "looked at myself" and life simply gets richer and more full filling each year.

Sounds like a really good path for you. :-) The proof is in the pudding, yes?
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