Question to Ponder

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Question to Ponder

Postby Webwanderer » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:09 pm

Here's a fun little consideration. Is this human experience the 'illusion of reality', or the 'reality of illusion'? Or maybe something else entirely?

WW
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:35 am

Webwanderer wrote:Here's a fun little consideration. Is this human experience the 'illusion of reality', or the 'reality of illusion'? Or maybe something else entirely?

WW


The way I see it, it's the "illusion of reality". Meaning the fundamental substratum being pure awareness (reality) and this "apparent" existence is ultimately an illusion. It's "apparently" real..it exists, as we can experience it, but it's not real, as "it" all comes and goes. The only thing that doesn't come and go (change) is awareness itself.
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Webwanderer » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:27 pm

dijmart wrote:The way I see it, it's the "illusion of reality".


Thanks for your response dijmart. In the interest of greater clarity on your response, can you define, in your perspective, what 'reality' actually is?

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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Mystic » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:01 am

Webwanderer wrote:Here's a fun little consideration. Is this human experience the 'illusion of reality', or the 'reality of illusion'? Or maybe something else entirely?

WW


It feels to me that I am walking around in a dream state and I do not see the complete ...or true, reality. An illusion is a lie so what is the truth? What is most fundamental about reality? Some writings point to the most fundamental law of reality being the law of cause and effect. If my perceptions of reality are effects then they are not the most fundamental aspect of reality. What is the cause of reality? That which is eternal is not dependent on the temporal. The abstract does not need the concrete but how does the eternal relate to the temporal?

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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:00 am

Webwanderer wrote:
dijmart wrote:The way I see it, it's the "illusion of reality".


Thanks for your response dijmart. In the interest of greater clarity on your response, can you define, in your perspective, what 'reality' actually is?

WW


Its knowing I am the unchanging, always present witness or observer that is aware of whatever experience (or non-experience), thought, feeling, emotion arises in/to me. Knowing that is who I really am, as this, doesn't come and go, as all else does.

However, the illusion is me to..apparently :wink:
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:59 am

Webwanderer wrote:Here's a fun little consideration. Is this human experience the 'illusion of reality', or the 'reality of illusion'? Or maybe something else entirely?

WW


What about you WW?
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Enlightened2B » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:38 am

I love Bashar's take on this. Not sure if it directly answers the question. But, here's a quote to wrap your mind around from him which I think is related to the question:

This crossing point, and why most of you don't realize
that it is a place to actually spend time in,
this crossing point is by its very nature... the unknown...
the unknown itself.

It is the recognition that there is no reality
aside from what you define reality to be,

and this is why very often,
you miss it and jump over it so quickly
is because it doesn't appear to exist to you,
it doesn't appear real to you
and so you don't spend anytime getting used to the fact,
that when you let go of an old belief,
you need to spend time getting used to the fact
that there is no "real" reality,

so that if you understand there is no "real" reality,
you will not feel that the old belief represents
a more "real" reality than the new belief,
and will not feel yourself drawn back to it,
as if it were somehow more real... more solid...
then any new belief you wish to incorporate into your mind,
into your consciousness.

You need to take time between the old belief and the new belief
to really understand... to really get a feeling...
that there is no reality, except for the fact that there is no reality.

Did that sound contradictory?

There is no reality except that there is no reality...
that there is no reality, IS the "real" reality.

The unknown is what you need to make a friend of,
you have to let yourself be all right with the recognition,
you have to let it be all right to spend time in the unknown,
you have to let it be all right to have the recognition
that there is no real reality,

aside from your definitions of the idea of reality,
and that then creates your experience of reality.
Even your own scientists know this now.

Many of your physicists are finding that
it is the heart of many of their theories of reality,
that there is no reality... empirically... inherently,
that you are responsible for creating your reality
based on your view of what you think it can be.

So, when you find yourself experiencing any degree of difficulty
in incorporating a new reality, you will usually find... not in all cases,
but very often you will usually find,
that it is because you have some idea
that there's supposed to be some notion of reality that is real,

against which you are supposed to measure your new reality
to see if you can find yourself lacking or wanting
or to see how close you match this idealized "real" reality.

But no matter what idealized idea you come up with...
that is still your creation,
there is no real reality aside from your definition of it.

So you're only measuring against yourself
not against any "real" background of reality,
to find yourself wanting,
to find yourself coming up short, as you say,
there is nothing to find yourself coming up short against,
you are it, in your universe... you are it.
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:10 pm

Thanks for the quote E2B. But for me, the nature of the question is more valuable than the details of the answer. Pondering the question is an exploratory adventure into our own understandings. It's meant to be a vehicle to get into an alignment where all greater clarity resides. With greater clarity of being comes a greater experience of being.

dijmart wrote:What about you WW?

My sense is that it starts with what is self-evident. That is consciousness itself and the awareness that "I am". Then reality becomes the experience of being. As to the human element of life, I see reality as experience itself. Even though one might fairly say that a human life and world is an illusion, the experience of the illusion is quite real. In other words, 'I am having a an experience of a human life'. The life will eventually pass, but the experience of it will forever remain. It is a real experience even though it was an experience of illusion.

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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:16 pm

Webwanderer wrote:The life will eventually pass, but the experience of it will forever remain.

Could you explain this a bit more, WW? I don't understand what you mean by experience forever remaining. Thanks!
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:20 pm

Mystic wrote:An illusion is a lie so what is the truth?

Thanks for your response Mystic. There are many ways to characterize illusion. Certainly 'a lie' is one, but it seems a bit harsh to paint all illusion as such. Take art for example. A sculpture of a man or woman may be just an illusion of a person, but it is also a creation of beauty in its expression. So too then is the entire human experience. While it may be a 'lie' in one context, it is a magnificent creation in another.

The good news is that we each get to choose how we see it. Making a clear distinction for the quality of our own experience is a gift worth exercising. No doubt we have been programmed by our environmental upbringing to an extent, but that does not negate our ever present ability to choose a new meaning for the elements of life and the human experience altogether.

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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:27 pm

Hi Mystic,

An illusion is a lie so what is the truth? What is most fundamental about reality?


Reality, imo, is not the senses (nothing you can see, feel or touch) or feelings, emotions, thoughts....it is that which is always present and unchanging. You may not have apprehended this yet, but your unchanging "awareness" of what appears to you, IS reality. The rest exists, but isn't real, therefore is illusion.
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:35 pm

I will add that once "reality" (awareness) is clearly understood, you can then be in the world and see that it all arises from you, is you, so things (situations, thoughts, feelings, etc) can be handled much differently, when you know it all comes and goes... but you stay the unchanging awareness of it all.
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby Webwanderer » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:37 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:The life will eventually pass, but the experience of it will forever remain.

Could you explain this a bit more, WW? I don't understand what you mean by experience forever remaining. Thanks!

Good question rachMiel. Think of some historic event in your personal life - one that was a life directional pivot point that elicited meaning for you. Preferably one that made life better for you as well. The precise physical events and conditions of that experience are gone forever, but the experience of it is still within you. You can call it to memory and relive it to a degree at anytime you wish. Now, that said, we have certain limitations of recall through our human brains, so memories may not be as clear as we may like.

But once we get beyond the brain's limitations and return to our Origin as Greater Consciousness Beings, our recall will once again be fully available, and we can review our life experiences as we wish. Those who have had NDE's/TDE's consistantly report full and clear recall of the life experiences they have had. And it's more than just memories for them. It's actual reliving of the events from a greater consciousness perspective. Experience remains forever. My sense is that it is a key component of 'reality'.

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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby rachMiel » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:17 pm

Beautiful, thanks. :-)

I worked for a long time with Marge Hopkins, a student of Jane Roberts, the Seth channeler. I once asked Marge what the "mission" of a soul was. She said: To experience. Her notion was that what the universe "wanted" from individual souls was a never-ending vast wealth of experiences, from the horrific to the sublime and everything in-between. That is was my/our calling, so to speak, to *experience" life vividly. She never said it explicitly, but I'm guessing she felt that in this way the universe gets to know itself, its full potential (which is infinite).
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Re: Question to Ponder

Postby dijmart » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:08 pm

RM said-
That is was my/our calling, so to speak, to *experience" life vividly. She never said it explicitly, but I'm guessing she felt that in this way the universe gets to know itself, its full potential (which is infinite).


As the Jiva (or person), which is part of Isvara (or God) I think this is correct, but ultimately I think it's to apprehend our true nature and live from this perspective while experiencing what arises.
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