One of the biggest traps

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One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:47 pm

I think one of the biggest traps is thinking that you have gone off course or whatever, just because you're feeling pain. Pain is what the "apparent" person experiences as the opposite of pleasure. That is "not" going to change. You can only change your reaction to it, somewhat...because, damn it, pain is painful!

I've been riddled with illness lately, bank accounts were hacked, my duckie died yesterday in her water bucket and this is just in the past 2 weeks! You just have to let the movie play out..do what you can and move forward, knowing you are watching the movie...you aren't what you can see. Meaning, this is all playing out within me, awareness, but since I'm associated with the "apparent" person...it's still painful.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:41 pm

I think that mental pain will completely end only at the time of enlightenment.. But the ability to feel the physical pain will still continue even though there is no suffering.. It is like the pain you feel when you have trekked a mountain.. But it is possible to think that we have fallen when we feel the mental pain..There is so much hidden mess in our unconscious and sometimes we may not even feel if it is there, especially in the moments of blissfulness.

Also, I have noticed after a deep temporary meditative state, the mind longs to experience that peace and stillness once again. That also sometimes creates a mental restlessness in me, close to pain. We just have to keep going. I always remind myself not to get discouraged during painful moments because that always happens and completely unavoidable until somebody is enlightened and has completely come out of the game that the 'little me' plays..
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:27 pm

Hi Borris,

I think that mental pain will completely end only at the time of enlightenment.


This is exactly the trap I was referring to! You will still live a human existence, which has polarity and that includes mental pain, it's suffering that ends, because you know that your true Self, awareness, is not in the least effected by it and that is your true identity.

Another words, let's say your enlightened...your mother dies. You will still feel emotional pain and even cry. Being enlightened will put it in perspective, so you won't suffer, but you will feel mental pain, even if temporary. If you don't like your mother (lol), then insert in that sentence someone else or your animal. This is just one example of many.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:46 pm

Being enlightened will put it in perspective, so you won't suffer, but you will feel mental pain, even if temporary.


Are you pretty sure? According to what I have heard from many masters, an enlightened person doesnt remain attached to a physical form anymore...Whether a person is in the body or not doesnt make a difference (emotionally) to an enlightened being. They see all the physical forms as a part of the drama and the 'being', if I have to use ET's vocabulary, is the only reality.. So, there is no suffering and no mental pain either...I dont think an enlightened person even emotionally reacts to the situation.

When Ramana Maharishi got enlightened, he went up to the mountains, leaving his parents.. A few days later, his mom found out his location, met him and begged him to return home.. Ramana was said to have been totally indifferent to the situation. He didnt show any emotional attachment towards his mother. If he had any mental pain, he would have responded to his mother emotionally. But the respect for his mother was not lost. In fact, he built his whole ashram around his mother's tomb, after her death..
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:25 pm

Are you pretty sure?


Yes, pain (physical and emotional) and pleasure persist with enlightenment, suffering ends. Let's back up a minute... you are awareness, so once "enlightened" you know without a shadow of a doubt.. "I'm awareness, not the "apparent" person I thought I was. So, with this you also know that thoughts, emotions, feelings "appear" within/to you, awareness. It's the grand movie!

You (awareness) are not separate from the movie, therefore after enlightement, the movie continues as long as you are associated with the body/mind/sense complex, so until the death of the body. You just know your true identity as non-dual, attributeless, impersonal, limitless awareness.

Btw, Nisargadatta and Ramana couldn't have been more different and both were "enlightened". Ramana was very passive, while Nisargadatta yelled and screamed, had a wife and chain smoked bidis. You cannot tell an enlightened person by their outward behaviors.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:41 pm

Btw, Nisargadatta and Ramana couldn't have been more different and both were "enlightened". Ramana was very passive, while Nisargadatta yelled and screamed, had a wife and chain smoked bidis. You cannot tell an enlightened person by their outward behaviors.


I agree with this part.. You cannot tell if a person is enlightened with the outward behavior.. There was an enlightened yogi called Sadhguru Shri Brahma who used to be angry. His energy was like that but he was fully realized.. It is interesting to hear that Nisargadatta used to yell and scream, do you have a link that talks about this?

pain (physical and emotional) and pleasure persist with enlightenment


This is the part that kind of contradicts with what I have known, heard and read.. If there is an experience of pain and pleasure, there is still craving and desire, which kind of puts you into unconscious..Yes, you are pure awareness but you tend to forget that truth when you are experiencing pain and pleasure...

You (awareness) are not separate from the movie, therefore after enlightement, the movie continues as long as you are associated with the body/mind/sense complex, so until the death of the body. You just know your true identity as non-dual, attributeless, impersonal, limitless awareness.


This is just a beginning. It is possible to get a glimpse of enlightenment.. It is called Satori in Zen.. It is just a beginning.. After the glimpse, you know that you are just pure awareness but it is not a living experience, it is not your 24/7 reality yet.. When you experience Satori, we can say that you are beginning to awaken.. But it is not enlightenment yet.. We dont call that as enlightenment in India.. Because, traditionally we know that it is possible to go beyond Satori and make it a living reality 24/7..

So, whatever you say is correct if you are referring Satori as enlightenment.. But there is more.. This is what traps a lot of people, once they get a taste of stillness they think there is nothing more and begin to teach others.. I have seen many such teachers. A person can be somebody who has experienced Satori and who also has intellectual understanding of all the teachings.. It might be crystal clear to that person that the witnessing self is real. But he is still in bondage. It is not the complete freedom. When the karmic material is exhausted, then there is no question of experiencing psychological pain and pleasure... That is when you can say that the person in enlightened.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:56 pm

Here's one example of many regarding Nisargadatta.-

"Nisargadatta seems to be better, so much so that he begins by attacking me:
Why are you writing this book?
I try to explain.
Do you think — he yells — that you will succeed where others have failed?
I say the outcome is not in my hands.
He makes dramatic, hostile gestures with his arms. He wants me to ask questions.
I repeat what I said yesterday…one can only ask for Grace.
There is more yelling. His disciples laugh. I keep silence but am extremely surprised, uncomfortable.
He shouts: Say something!
The power — I reply — that brought me here yesterday appears to be turning me away this morning.
He is now laughing at me."

From- http://www.newlives.freeola.net/intervi ... n_dunn.php
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:08 pm

Here's one example of many regarding Nisargadatta.-

"Nisargadatta seems to be better, so much so that he begins by attacking me:
Why are you writing this book?
I try to explain.
Do you think — he yells — that you will succeed where others have failed?
I say the outcome is not in my hands.
He makes dramatic, hostile gestures with his arms. He wants me to ask questions.
I repeat what I said yesterday…one can only ask for Grace.
There is more yelling. His disciples laugh. I keep silence but am extremely surprised, uncomfortable.
He shouts: Say something!
The power — I reply — that brought me here yesterday appears to be turning me away this morning.
He is now laughing at me."


That was interesting... I will share another interesting excerpt from what Osho had to say about Nisargadatta Maharaj (I dont say that NM was not realized.. Osho himself has said that enlightened masters intentionally criticize other masters to stop disciples from going for Guru-shopping.. I dont find his yelling as a problem either.. I just like to share what Osho said about NM, it is very interesting and funny as well) :

” There was a man in Bombay, Nisargadatta Maharaj. Nobody knew this big name; he was known to the masses as “Beedie Baba” because he was continuously smoking beedies. You can find in every village such kinds of beedie babas. I think India has seven hundred thousand villages and each village must have at least one; more is possible. And Amrito wrote a few days ago to me, because another young Dutchman became very much involved with Beedie Baba… The man seems to be very sincere, but the trouble is that the people who come from the West have a very childlike heart, very trusting, and they are unaware that in India spirituality is just a routine. Everybody talks about great things and their lives are as ugly as possible. When Beedie Baba said that he would speak only to this young Dutchman, naturally his ego must have felt tremendously vast. The crowd that surrounded Beedie Baba was also of the same quality… rickshaw wallahs waiting for their passengers, sitting by the side of Beedie Baba. And when he said he would not speak to anybody unless it was this Dutchman… So he spoke to the Dutchman, who has now compiled books on Beedie Baba. Now in India it is almost parrot-like, but to the Westerner it seems to be a tremendous revelation — when Beedie Baba said, “Aham brahmasmi; I am God, I am that” the young Dutchman immediately wrote a book: I AM THAT! Because for the West, spirituality is a foreign affair, just as for the East, science is a foreign affair.

Even the poorest beggar knows more about metaphysics, about great ideologies… And when the Western man comes — he may be well educated but his education is of science, his education is of logic, his education makes him a great intellectual. But in the heart he remains very naive. Then any Beedie Baba, any idiot can make a great impact on him. This Dutch man lived for months together with Beedie Baba. He does not mention his well-known name, Beedie Baba; he mentions only his legal name, Nisargadatta Maharaj. He has written many books on Nisargadatta Maharaj; he has made Nisargadatta famous all over the world. I have looked through those books — sheer nonsense.”

- Osho
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:09 pm

Yes, you are pure awareness but you tend to forget that truth when you are experiencing pain and pleasure


Not if your enlightened... In Vedanta it's called Moksha (freedom/liberation), but Self realization (awakening to your true Self) comes first. Moksha is when the knowledge is fully actualized into every area of one's life.

This answer takes care of the rest of your post, as I had not added it for the sake of keeping it simple.

When the karmic material is exhausted, then there is no question of experiencing psychological pain and pleasure... That is when you can say that the person in enlightened.


I totally disagree with this statement. Apparently, we have very different views. We can agree to disagree!
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:31 pm

Not if your enlightened... In Vedanta it's called Moksha (freedom/liberation), but Self realization (awakening to your true Self) comes first. Moksha is when the knowledge is fully actualized into every area of one's life.


I agree with that.. Moksha is the word for enlightenment in Sanskrit, and what you call as self-realization, I prefer to call it as Satori.. These are just words, so shouldnt be an issue...

I totally disagree with this statement. Apparently, we have very different views. We can agree to disagree!


I guess we will know the answer when we get enlightened..
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby Onceler » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:13 am

I agree with what you're saying dijmart. I don't know about enlightenment, but believe it is possible to feel pain, mental and physical and not be bothered by it. In fact, I experience this, where there was once tremendous suffering. It's no fun, but it's not a problem.

Hope things turn around for you soon.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:29 am

Onceler wrote:I agree with what you're saying dijmart. I don't know about enlightenment, but believe it is possible to feel pain, mental and physical and not be bothered by it. In fact, I experience this, where there was once tremendous suffering. It's no fun, but it's not a problem.

Hope things turn around for you soon.


Thanks Onceler!

I hear ya with the enlightenment word, as so many have a different concept in mind when they use it. I'm not speaking of some magical experience that will leave one with never ending bliss. No, that's a fairy tale that many guru's allow their devotees to believe, which is really an injustice and has them chasing their tail. They think if they are experiencing any mental pain, then somethings missing in the equation and that's just not so, hence me making this thread.

Anyways, my recent illness's are letting up, the lone ducky is doing ok by herself and the bank issue is resolving itself. Balance is returning...ahhhh!
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby dijmart » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:21 am

Don't remember if I've posted this before, but it a gold nugget-

"The ego, one’s sense of being an apparent individual person, is not actually the problem. Suffering only ensues from the circumstances of one’s life when one believes that the apparent person is both real and one’s true identity. When you understand that you are whole, complete, perfect, pure, limitless, attributeless awareness and that, as such, no apparent object or experience can enhance, diminish, or otherwise affect your essential nature in any way or to any degree whatsoever, then you are free. Through the instrument of the mind-body-sense mechanism that constitutes the apparent individual person you seem to be, you will still encounter the ups and downs that characterize the drama of life within the context of the apparent dualistic reality. However, while the experience of pain and pleasure persists, suffering ceases once and for all.

One’s association with the mind-body-sense complex, therefore, not need and, for that matter, should not be eradicated—self-realization, after all, does not equate with dissociative identity disorder or death—but one’s identification with it should be negated through the assimilation of self-knowledge."

–Ted Schmidt
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby borris83 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:45 am

I agree with what you're saying dijmart. I don't know about enlightenment, but believe it is possible to feel pain, mental and physical and not be bothered by it. In fact, I experience this, where there was once tremendous suffering. It's no fun, but it's not a problem.

Hope things turn around for you soon.


I dont disagree with that when you say it is possible to feel pain mental pain and not be bothered by it. All I am saying is that it is not the end. If someone is already convinced that they are realized, then it might be comforting for their ego to believe that in spite of going through mental pain they are still realized and call themselves realized. To me, that actually seems to be a trap. Ego wants to believe that it is enlightened and special. In fact, that kind of soothes the pain when you go through the pain.

If you dont bother about your mental pain then it is wonderful. But dont wrap the label of self-realization or enlightenment around that.

I'm not speaking of some magical experience that will leave one with never ending bliss. No, that's a fairy tale that many guru's allow their devotees to believe, which is really an injustice and has them chasing their tail


Again, the belief that a mystical experience is going to end your suffering may also be a trap to avoid the present. It may place a hope on the future to escape the present. So, some masters avoid talking about that. Because enlightenment is not about the 'little me' or the ego to gain or achieve a mystical state or bliss. The little me cannot even stand the bliss that is always there, it will simply dissolve. When masters talk about eternal bliss, it makes the mind to interpret it in a totally wrong way. The whole journey towards truth is like a salt idol trying to measure the depth of the ocean. The salt idol is no more, it becomes the ocean.

Your true being is bliss. It is not something that you achieve or accumulate. It is that which is already, when you peel off everything else around it. In fact, the whole journey is traditionally compared to peeling the skin of onion. It is how that feels like. Everyday you become less and less and one day the you that you had always believed to be yourself is no longer there.
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Re: One of the biggest traps

Postby Onceler » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:31 pm

I just lost two posts to this thread.....I guess the universe is telling me keep it short. The short version is that I definitely don't believe I am enlightened, nor do I want to be. I am satisfied with my life as it is.....which is odd as it is the exact same life that 'caused' 50 years of enormous suffering in the form of major depression, generalized anxiety disorder interspersed with panic attacks. I also don't think this is the end, as my life and perspective is constantly evolving.

This is just my take and I know others have their own paths.
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