How might we think of Jesus?

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joe
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How might we think of Jesus?

Post by joe » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:28 am

Christians speak about Jesus as the path to redemption. Translating Christian language into spiritual principles, what does Jesus represent? How can we read the figure of Jesus in broader spiritual terms without relying on Biblical narratives?

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Onceler
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Onceler » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:42 pm

I’ve actually been thinking about what Jesus represents quite a bit lately, in the midst of so many confusing messages about what Christ represents politically and culturally. It seems everyone wants a piece of him and bends his message to extremes to represent their viewpoint.

To me Christ’s message is quite simple. It’s not about dogma, rules, or commandments, but rather love. Specifically unconditional love. He demonstrated acceptance and love without judgment or conditions to a wide variety of humanity; the sick, the poor, the rich, prositutes, tax collectors, foreigners, and sinners of all stripes. The only judgments he seemed to place on others were against the hypocrites of society and those that preyed on others for their own gain.

So many of today’s churches and congregants place conditions on their members and make an effort to extend their Christian judgements politically throughout society in the name of the guy who accepted everyone without condition. These conditions are held in place and reinforced by a complex system of manipulation that is actually quite sophisticated and potent; conformity, guilt, shame, nationalism, fear. I find it beyond bizarre.

I also find the concept of unconditional love fascinating and am always looking for true examples of it around me.
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Webwanderer
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:03 pm

joe wrote:Christians speak about Jesus as the path to redemption. Translating Christian language into spiritual principles, what does Jesus represent? How can we read the figure of Jesus in broader spiritual terms without relying on Biblical narratives?
The problem with the Jesus story is similar to the accounts of most any war. The victors write the history. Did Jesus actually walk on water? Did he actually raise the dead after several days of decomposition? The thing is, the victors, those who became the Christian Church, wrote the history - or at least chose which scriptures would be included in the official Bible.

For me, the more relevant element of Jesus is that he was, or embodied, The Christ, or Christ Consciousness. It was the same with Buddha. His name was Siddhartha. He became the Buddha which meant 'awakened' one. Any awakened being is considered a Buddha. So it is with Christ Consciousness. Jesus embodied Christ Consciousness, or was an awakened being. His actions were a demonstration of awakened consciousness.

That same Consciousness is available to all of us through the embodiment of our own True Nature. Insight and inspiration are manifestations of elements of our alignment with that Nature. Judgments, the kind that makes something or someone wrong, are counter to that Consciousness. Appreciation and inclusiveness are elements of the path to Christ Consciousness and awakening.

Anyway, that's my take. What's yours?

WW

joe
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by joe » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:08 pm

Onceler wrote:To me Christ’s message is quite simple. It’s not about dogma, rules, or commandments, but rather love. Specifically unconditional love. He demonstrated acceptance and love without judgment or conditions to a wide variety of humanity; the sick, the poor, the rich, prositutes, tax collectors, foreigners, and sinners of all stripes. The only judgments he seemed to place on others were against the hypocrites of society and those that preyed on others for their own gain.
That's exactly what was preached at the last sermon at the church. It was about Christianity not being a religion but a relationship with Christ.

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by joe » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:15 pm

Webwanderer wrote:For me, the more relevant element of Jesus is that he was, or embodied, The Christ, or Christ Consciousness. It was the same with Buddha. His name was Siddhartha. He became the Buddha which meant 'awakened' one. Any awakened being is considered a Buddha. So it is with Christ Consciousness. Jesus embodied Christ Consciousness, or was an awakened being. His actions were a demonstration of awakened consciousness.
Absolutely, but the prominence of Jesus (the only other figure as enlightened in organized religion is the Buddha) as THE saviour, as THE path, is an embodiment in the form of a personage of not just the awakened state, but as the unique individual. My question is asking what we are to make of all of pure consciousness being expressed in this one individual, as opposed to recognizing that there have been many enlightened teachers both in and out of Christianity throughout history. If Jesus is solitary among all teachers; if Jesus the man is the only path to salvation (we should have a relationship with HIM, etc.), how does this idea square with general Christ consciousness, which theoretically could be found in anyone?

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:39 pm

joe wrote:If Jesus is solitary among all teachers; if Jesus the man is the only path to salvation (we should have a relationship with HIM, etc.), how does this idea square with general Christ consciousness, which theoretically could be found in anyone?
I see it as Jesus is a metaphor for turning toward Him, or more accurately, toward Christ (Consciousness) as what will 'save' us from the separation of egoic consciousness. Christ Consciousness, or alignment with our True Nature (as that same Christ Consciousness was Jesus' True Nature), is the underlying point of the Christian religion. Unfortunately it has devolved through the Church's self interest in making itself an intermediary, that it was Jesus the man, rather than The Christ Consciousness he represented, that is the Savior.

WW

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turiya
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by turiya » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:22 am

Onceler wrote: To me Christ’s message is quite simple. It’s not about dogma, rules, or commandments, but rather love. Specifically unconditional love.
I agree with that. :D

And, the way I see it, Unconditional Love is inseparable from Christ Consciousness/Buddha Nature.

... which is the greatest alchemist! :wink: :
https://youtu.be/dtQM-tuEaFo
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by joe » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:25 am

But there's no way of getting around the fact that Christians believe that there is only one person who fully embodies Christ consciousness, and that is Jesus Christ. Everything for them depends on one's relationship with this particular personage, which is based on an actual individual. Nobody else, no other teacher is in any way comparable. Thus, everything spiritual comes back to this figure of Jesus. He is personified when they talk about having a "relationship" with him. He is a real historical figure to whom everything must be directed.

For Christians, to speak of Jesus as a metaphor denies this very real individual who literally was the son of God. If the figure of Jesus was just another spiritual teacher, he would not have a singular place at the apex of the religion. If he were merely a "pointer", there would not be so much emphasis on him over other pointers nor all the supplemental aspects that are put on top of basic spiritual principles in the form of a narrative about this individual and an emphasis on a relationship with Him.

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:15 am

joe wrote:But there's no way of getting around the fact that Christians believe that there is only one person who fully embodies Christ consciousness, and that is Jesus Christ.
I'm not sure what your point is. And I'm certainly not trying to get around the reality of what many Christians believe. So yes, this is what many Christians believe about the figure of Jesus. Does that make it true? What are you saying by emphasizing it? That you agree with this? That they must be right because it is a long standing institution? And is there another explanation that offers a deeper insight into what Jesus taught? And for what his true relationship was with God - and for that matter, what ours is?
For Christians, to speak of Jesus as a metaphor denies this very real individual who literally was the son of God. If the figure of Jesus was just another spiritual teacher, he would not have a singular place at the apex of the religion.
So, are Christians right in believing Jesus was the "only" son of God? Do you think this is what Jesus intended? Are we not all children of God? Doesn't scripture quote Jesus as saying that we could do all that he did, and greater still? That we are brothers?

WW

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by joe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:54 am

Webwanderer wrote: So yes, this is what many Christians believe about the figure of Jesus. Does that make it true? What are you saying by emphasizing it? That you agree with this? That they must be right because it is a long standing institution? And is there another explanation that offers a deeper insight into what Jesus taught? And for what his true relationship was with God - and for that matter, what ours is?
My point is that the emphasis on the singularity of Jesus as a persona makes him specific, and that specificity and emphasis is peculiar when one considers the notion of Christ consciousness, which seems to be impersonal.
Webwanderer wrote:So, are Christians right in believing Jesus was the "only" son of God? Do you think this is what Jesus intended? Are we not all children of God? Doesn't scripture quote Jesus as saying that we could do all that he did, and greater still? That we are brothers?


I don't know if they are right, but their insistence on it seems to mean they are talking about a different spirituality than what people like Tolle talk about. And I don't know that Jesus ever said we could do better than him. That sounds absurd.

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jukai
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by jukai » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:51 pm

Onceler wrote:I also find the concept of unconditional love fascinating and am always looking for true examples of it around me.
Don't look for it with specimens of modern homo sapiens. You'll have much better luck with Canis lupus familiaris or Felis catus.

Like your posts.

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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:00 pm

Joe wrote:And I don't know that Jesus ever said we could do better than him. That sounds absurd.
Just for clarity. I didn't say Jesus said it. I said scripture says he said it. Here's the Scripture:

John 14:12-14:
American Standard Version
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father."

Other versions of the Bible say much the same.
My point is that the emphasis on the singularity of Jesus as a persona makes him specific, and that specificity and emphasis is peculiar when one considers the notion of Christ consciousness, which seems to be impersonal.
I agree that that is what is taught. That is their choice and the choice of those that follow that teaching. What do you choose to live by? There's no wrong answer in the larger sense. Only a choice based on one's best and clearest understanding. Whatever that choice is will make considerable difference in one's life experience.

WW

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Rob X
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by Rob X » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Hi Joe

You might find this book interesting and helpful:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Experiencing-G ... K6NQPAD51F

The author is currently a Baptist minister and served as a full time pastor for forty years. He explores aspects of Christianity via the understanding of nonduality using language and concepts which will be familiar to readers of ET. Have a read of the blurb and see what you think.

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turiya
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by turiya » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Another good book that Eckhart mentioned in one of his talks:

Spiritual Interpretation of Scripture by Joel S. Goldsmith

https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Interp ... +goldsmith

:)
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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turiya
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Re: How might we think of Jesus?

Post by turiya » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:24 am

Ok, oops.. he didn't mention that book in particular.

But I'd recommend that one to start with. :D

( Here's the Eckhart talk :wink: : https://www.eckharttollenow.com/s/0n3dsp )
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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