Role of the mind

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joe
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Role of the mind

Post by joe » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:40 am

I recently heard a point of view that the spiritual dimension is part of the mind. What is the argument that spirituality is something outside the mind?

joe
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Re: Role of the mind

Post by joe » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:48 pm

Can someone provide some clarity please?

runstrails
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Re: Role of the mind

Post by runstrails » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:53 pm

In Vedanta the mind is described as made up of several components like intellect and 'mind' (which interprets sense information) and memory, together which give rise to an ego-type construct (I sense).

Self-knowledge (or removal of ignorance about your true nature) takes place in the intellect. Once the intellect understands its true nature, it places the "I" on consciousness and not on the ego construct.

This self-knowledge is permanent, but states of mind (like enlightenment experiences, kenshos, samadhi etc..) are temporary.

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by randomguy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:59 pm

Hi joe, trails,

To be sure there are plenty of spiritual dimensions to play within the mind. It doesn't seem like something exclusively inside of outside of the mind especially since spirituality can mean different things to different people.

Spirituality to me if it offers any significant benefit is to see what hasn't been previously seen. And thought has a way of obscuring what is in plain sight. In this sense, spirituality offers a wider view because through a 'spiritual' focus one may see that one already is so much larger than 'mind'. This earnest will to see need not be called spirituality though. The label is just a label. Just get good an curious about what thoughts are and what is observing them.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by joe » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:12 am

I guess what I'm getting at is that an atheist can claim that the desire to be present or mindful so that one can live more fully is something that we are biologically driven to do. That somehow relates to science and to how the mind works. If spirituality is getting past the mind, what is the argument against the atheist view?

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by randomguy » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:48 am

If claims and arguments led to the truth humanity would have been enlightened and suffering put to bed for good long long ago. Help me understand what is the value of the argument and/or counter argument? Lets say you find the perfect argument. What then? Try to convince people? How does that go? How can it possibly matter except what one absolutely knows for oneself without a doubt?
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

joe
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Re: Role of the mind

Post by joe » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:19 am

My point is that atheists are stuck in the mind. They can't recognize the spiritual dimension in their lives because they try to use reason to understand it.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Role of the mind

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:03 am

joe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:19 am
My point is that atheists are stuck in the mind. They can't recognize the spiritual dimension in their lives because they try to use reason to understand it.
Yeah, good luck with that. My own brother is an atheist. He is so invested in it that any honest consideration is beyond his current capability. He's totally locked down. He even thinks I'm some sort of religious nut. Funny really.

The problem with most Atheists is that there is total belief that consciousness springs from the brain and its activity, which is mind in action. Until one can allow for the possibility that consciousness - spirit - is independent of the brain they are likely stuck in their indoctrination. How often I've heard: "I believe in science, not religion".

It generally takes a serious jolt to escape such strongly held belief. Dr Eben Alexander is one who managed it and he had to spend a week in a coma having an out of body experience to wake him up. His professional training told him he was brain dead, yet he had an amazing, far reaching experience.

For me, Atheists are just another type of religion. Fundamentalists of all types suffer significant limitations in their life view.

WW

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by turiya » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:39 am

Here's a good video where Rupert Spira talks about the Mind and it's essential nature (i.e. Awareness... or the "Spiritual Dimension" if you want to call it that):

https://youtu.be/Qgcfa0LFKXc?t=210

(I chose to start the video at 3:30 to "cut to the chase")

:D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by Dcs » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 pm

joe wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:19 am
My point is that atheists are stuck in the mind. They can't recognize the spiritual dimension in their lives because they try to use reason to understand it.
Rarely I find that is important to label this, because, as religions in general, this kind of label is also a form, and poses the subject as something solid and permanent that can be "understood". But if I am "obliged" to label, I (or my ego, hehehehe) would say that I am an atheist as well.

Not all atheists are the "I believe in science" type or something like that, and I'm not the only atheist that is dedicated in non-dualism, presence, etc. There are monks that are atheists, for example.

But, again: for me, it's not important to label this.

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:14 pm

Dcs wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:43 pm
Not all atheists are the "I believe in science" type or something like that, and I'm not the only atheist that is dedicated in non-dualism, presence, etc. There are monks that are atheists, for example.
It may be worthwhile to define what you mean by 'atheist'. Most of the rabid atheists I know are referring to the 'Old Man on the Throne' God that they believe doesn't exist. To that narrow definition I might be an atheist as well.

But there is a much larger view of life beyond this human experience that this type of atheist declines to consider. The Old Man on the Throne God is an easy target for dismissal. Life beyond the physical is not so easy to deny - at least not while honestly considering the available evidence.

WW

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by randomguy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:32 pm

You might like this, Joe, Rupert Sheldrake 'Science Set Free'. A top notch argumentative work on how dogma has crept into the sciences and the history of how sciences at large lost the mystery of the universe in favor of a mechanical world view. In it he casts harsh light on that champion of thought, Decartes and performs a detrousering of the worlds most famous atheist, Dawkins.
https://www.amazon.com/Science-Set-Free ... 0770436722

All you have to do is get every atheist in the world to read or listen to the whole 400 pages. ;)

Science isn't the villain I hope. Plenty of scientists acknowledge the divine, E.g. Einstein - “Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man.”

Historically atheists are a harmless bunch enough, not burning each other at the stake nor applying thumbscrews as a matter of convincing people and the like.

It might be helpful to consider that most atheists simply don't want to have religious dogma forced upon them. Like WW said any one can embrace dogma. Ever engaged with someone under the spell of a dogmatic 'no self' belief system? I'd much rather have coffee with someone who identifies themselves as an atheist.

And science is pretty cool really. It comes up with some artful models how things operate in time. It just doesn't explain what this actually is because it can't of course because the mind itself is incapable of doing so.

The problem with atheists is that when you really look at one, just as you look at the moon or a lake or a set of car keys, when you really look at one clearly there is only the divine source of being reflected from your own universal heart.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

joe
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Re: Role of the mind

Post by joe » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:04 pm

turiya wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:39 am
Here's a good video where Rupert Spira talks about the Mind and it's essential nature (i.e. Awareness... or the "Spiritual Dimension" if you want to call it that):

https://youtu.be/Qgcfa0LFKXc?t=210

(I chose to start the video at 3:30 to "cut to the chase")

:D
Great video- thanks!
So what he is saying, and another way to think of this, is that everything is experienced in consciousness which is the spiritual dimension in life, and consciousness springs from the mind. When someone argues that the desire to be mindful is a product of evolutionary psychology, where does this fall in the discussion? I am essentially trying to understand why thinking about mindfulness without recognizing the spiritual dimension makes no sense.

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by turiya » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:32 am

Glad you enjoyed the video, Joe. :D
joe wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:04 pm
So what he is saying, and another way to think of this, is that everything is experienced in consciousness which is the spiritual dimension in life, and consciousness springs from the mind.
Yes. Except for that last part... Instead of infinite Consciousness springing from the finite mind, Rupert is saying that it's the finite mind which springs from (arises in) infinite Consciousness/Awareness.
joe wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:04 pm
When someone argues that the desire to be mindful is a product of evolutionary psychology, where does this fall in the discussion?
Well, I'd say that "the desire to be mindful is a product of evolutionary psychology" is an interesting theory. And it sounds like a convincingly reasonable conclusion to jump to. However, is this theory/assumption more than just a thought that the mind either believes in or doesn't?... Is it possible to prove this theory through direct experience? What can be proven through direct experience?
joe wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:04 pm
I am essentially trying to understand why thinking about mindfulness without recognizing the spiritual dimension makes no sense.
Basically because thinking about mindfulness (Awareness/Consciousness) without being mindful (Aware/Conscious) doesn't put an end to suffering. So, it's not very practical and sensical in that regard. :wink:

(Thinking about it may be fun and interesting, though. :D )
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Role of the mind

Post by joe » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:29 am

On that third point, I don't think you are answering the question. Evolutionary psychology and other human sciences are thought to exist outside human consciousness as objective reality. So those who subscribe to these sciences and their theories of the human condition use them rather than practice present moment awareness as a spiritual discipline.

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