Can anyone help me, please?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Dcs
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Dcs » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:51 pm

Hello, pabl692. Good morning, my friend. :- )

Don't get me wrong, nothing that I writed below was based in angry or something like that. I'm saying that because is easy to misunderstand when we read what other people writed insted of listen the voice, you know? Hehehehehe.

Listen: although the practice is very particular, it's clear that you didn't get it. We told you this. You misunderstood a lot of concepts about all this. I'm gonna give you some examples, but there are a lot more of them:

- "What scares me is people talking like life itself is an illusion. And that if I feel I love someone, that is an illusion. Nothing is real. And that by aspiring to have a partner and a family, that is in some way a bad an unenlightened way of thinking."
- "But Tolle and his followers seem to go even further, that I should even think about anything."
- "I don't see what is wrong with having a few aspirations for the future."
- "Just cutting myself off from all the beauty and idiosyncrasies of this world we live in, and not feeling anything, to dumb myself down to an almost vegetative state where I don't feel anything or have any opinions."
- "The love I feel for people isn't real. They aren't real, they're illusions. Everything is an illusion."
- "I do not want to be a zombie."
- "Really I don't 'love' anything."
- "It just freaks me out that apparently I have 2 minds."
- "So my love for animals is all false."
- "If nothing is real, and nothing matters, why carry on?"
- "Feel like to get rid of your ego, you end up with no personality. You are completely emotionless."
- "It doesn't matter now if I'm dead or alive, so why not be dead?"
- "Nothing really matters. Education is pointless. Relationships are pointless. Emotions are pointless. I get it."

Some of these misinterpretations are common, and there is nothing wrong to conclude them thinking they are right. It's normal to do this in the beginning. But the difference is that even when we say to you they are misinterpretations, you're still repeating them as they are right and as you got it; but, with all the respect, you just didn't. These conclusions are wrong. That is not about any of this...

To you have an idea: there are some Buddhist traditions that refuse to speak about anything of this before the student have a lot of experience with meditation. Some of them wait even years to talk to the students about some nondual concepts. They do this because they know this is something that has to be truly experienced by the person (because it is something before even the language), and they don't believe the person can talk or listen to words about this before he/she has meditated a lot.

So, in my opinion, you have only three healthy choices:

First: you can think "I respect these guys, but, for me, all of this are wrong." and just go with your life. You can even consider us crazy, if helps, hehehehe. If someday you feel different about this, you can try again. If you never feel differente about this, you can never try again. It's ok. :- )

Second: you can think "Oh, these guys have more experience than me, and they are telling that I misunderstood a lot of things. As I want to really try this, I'm gonna listen to them." and just try some of our suggestions. There are a lot of good ones here. As we are "talking" about this right now, I'm gonna give you one more: if you want to give a sincere try, drop everything you think that this is about, and just meditate. You can meditate everyday when you woke up or before you are going to bed, for example. You can start with 10 minutes meditation per day, then increases it to 12 minutes, etc... Oh, and at least try to drop these conclusions we're showing that are wrong.

Third: you can think "I respect these guys, but I'm not so sure if I 'believe' or not about all this. I'm confused. But as meditation has been scientifically proven, I'm gonna drop all of these readings and this forum, and I will only meditate everyday for a while." and just meditates. You don't necessarily have to understand any concepts about this in order to meditate. Read the book "Science of meditation" (Daniel Goleman and Richard Davidson). They use the most rigorous methodologies to prove what meditation can do and what can't. You'll be surprised with the results. Just read it. There is nothing about nondualism, and there is a loooot of incredible research results, hehehehe.

I'd suggest that you do the third one. It is a balanced choice. But it's your choice, of course. However, I strongly recommend you at least do one of them, because what you are doing now, in my opinion, is not going to bring you anywhere. This is not something that you can just read and understand, and in doing so you are concluding various wrong things, and they even are making you suffer.

It's awesome that you tried being in the 'now' sometimes. That's very good. But it is wrong to think that these little and shorts experiences necessarily are what this is about. There is not a rule, but usually the road is so much longer than that. Do not fool yourself.

Good lucky in your journey. Life is extraordinarily beautiful and incredible. : -)
Last edited by Dcs on Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6536
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:06 pm

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:07 pm
If nothing is real, and nothing matters, why carry on?

I see what Tolle and others are saying. Nothing really matters. Education is pointless. Relationships are pointless. Emotions are pointless. I get it.
I don't believe you do get it. While it may be true that no 'thing' is real, there is more to life than 'things'. Can you guess what is real? Can you guess what matters and what the point of life is? It's right in front of you. You cannot escape it. There is indeed value in relationships, as there is also great value in emotions. Can you find it? Can you feel it?

If you believe that nothing matters, then that is the lens you will view life through and that belief will blind you to what truly is real. What is it? What could possibly be real in a world of illusion?

WW

pabl692
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by pabl692 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm

[/quote]
Dcs wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:51 pm
Hello, pabl692. Good morning, my friend. :- )

Don't get me wrong, nothing that I writed below was based in angry or something like that. I'm saying that because is easy to misunderstand when we read what other people writed insted of listen the voice, you know? Hehehehehe.

Listen: although the practice is very particular, it's clear that you didn't get it. We told you this. You misunderstood a lot of concepts about all this. I'm gonna give you some examples, but there are a lot more of them:

- "What scares me is people talking like life itself is an illusion. And that if I feel I love someone, that is an illusion. Nothing is real. And that by aspiring to have a partner and a family, that is in some way a bad an unenlightened way of thinking."
- "But Tolle and his followers seem to go even further, that I should even think about anything."
- "I don't see what is wrong with having a few aspirations for the future."
- "Just cutting myself off from all the beauty and idiosyncrasies of this world we live in, and not feeling anything, to dumb myself down to an almost vegetative state where I don't feel anything or have any opinions."
- "The love I feel for people isn't real. They aren't real, they're illusions. Everything is an illusion."
- "I do not want to be a zombie."
- "Really I don't 'love' anything."
- "It just freaks me out that apparently I have 2 minds."
- "So my love for animals is all false."
- "If nothing is real, and nothing matters, why carry on?"
- "Feel like to get rid of your ego, you end up with no personality. You are completely emotionless."
- "It doesn't matter now if I'm dead or alive, so why not be dead?"
- "Nothing really matters. Education is pointless. Relationships are pointless. Emotions are pointless. I get it."

Some of these misinterpretations are common, and there is nothing wrong to conclude them thinking they are right. It's normal to do this in the beginning. But the difference is that even when we say to you they are misinterpretations, you're still repeating them as they are right and as you got it; but, with all the respect, you just didn't. These conclusions are wrong. That is not about any of this...

To you have an idea: there are some Buddhist traditions that refuse to speak about anything of this before the student have a lot of experience with meditation. Some of them wait even years to talk to the students about some nondual concepts. They do this because they know this is something that has to be truly experienced by the person (because it is something before even the language), and they don't believe the person can talk or listen to words about this before he/she has meditated a lot.

So, in my opinion, you have only three healthy choices:

First: you can think "I respect these guys, but, for me, all of this are wrong." and just go with your life. You can even consider us crazy, if helps, hehehehe. If someday you feel different about this, you can try again. If you never feel differente about this, you can never try again. It's ok. :- )

Second: you can think "Oh, these guys have more experience than me, and they are telling that I misunderstood a lot of things. As I want to really try this, I'm gonna listen to them." and just try some of our suggestions. There are a lot of good ones here. As we are "talking" about this right now, I'm gonna give you one more: if you want to give a sincere try, drop everything you think that this is about, and just meditate. You can meditate everyday when you woke up or before you are going to bed, for example. You can start with 10 minutes meditation per day, then increases it to 12 minutes, etc... Oh, and at least try to drop these conclusions we're showing that are wrong.

Third: you can think "I respect these guys, but I'm not so sure if I 'believe' or not about all this. I'm confused. But as meditation has been scientifically proven, I'm gonna drop all of these readings and this forum, and I will only meditate everyday for a while." and just meditates. You don't necessarily have to understand any concepts about this in order to meditate. Read the book "Science of meditation" (Daniel Goleman and Richard Davidson). They use the most rigorous methodologies to prove what meditation can do and what can't. You'll be surprised with the results. Just read it. There is nothing about nondualism, and there is a loooot of incredible research results, hehehehe.

I'd suggest that you do the third one. It is a balanced choice. But it's your choice, of course. However, I strongly recommend you at least do one of them, because what you are doing now, in my opinion, is not going to bring you anywhere. This is not something that you can just read and understand, and in doing so you are concluding various wrong things, and they even are making you suffer.

It's awesome that you tried being in the 'now' sometimes. That's very good. But it is wrong to think that these little and shorts experiences necessarily are what this is about. There is not a rule, but usually the road is so much longer than that. Do not fool yourself.

Good lucky in your journey. Life is extraordinarily beautiful and incredible. : -)
Hi again,

I don't know how I can read a book at the moment. I can't even function. I don't see the point in anything, genuinely. I swear I'm not just saying this for a response, but this how I see it sat here right now. Sure I will try and meditate, if only to just try and get some sense of calm. I can't do anything, I just want to sleep, sleep, sleep.

My points remain, however. If the root of suffering is social constructs, and everything is a social construct and as such they should be avoided, then what do we have left?

I can enter the 'now', sure. People say that they reconnect with nature and see the beauty in everything. But who says that nature is beautiful? Isn't that a social construct? Isn't EVERYTHING a social construct? Isn't the beauty of the 'now' a construct? Who says it feels good?

What is the point in anything, if it is all a construct, and therefore an illusion, and not real. Only it becomes real in your mind, which involves creating a thought, which are not permitted, as thinking leads to suffering. Do you know what I mean?

An extreme example: if one person kills another person, we label them a 'murderer'. This is a social construct. Also, the act of killing being bad, is therefore a construct. Tolle, in his own way, is getting at this. There is no point in feeling bad about anything youve ever done that you dwell on, or there is no point in feeling inadequate, because all these standards and morals we hold ourselves to are fiction... Can anyone else see this?

So, what are we left with? Well, sure we can just do what we want and not feel bad about it. That makes sense.

But my old world has come crashing down in the process. I can't just get over this. And, for whatever reason, my old life had more purpose. I enjoyed being the 'regular Joe', getting up and going to work and doing the mundane things.

So sorry, I sound like a broken record. I just don't see a way out. I will try and meditate to calm down. I will use the app 'headspace'.

I wish I could speak with some of you guys more, not just on here. Because the only thing that gives me comfort is a bit of interaction with people like you. I feel like I'm not alone.
Webwanderer wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:06 pm
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:07 pm
If nothing is real, and nothing matters, why carry on?

I see what Tolle and others are saying. Nothing really matters. Education is pointless. Relationships are pointless. Emotions are pointless. I get it.
I don't believe you do get it. While it may be true that no 'thing' is real, there is more to life than 'things'. Can you guess what is real? Can you guess what matters and what the point of life is? It's right in front of you. You cannot escape it. There is indeed value in relationships, as there is also great value in emotions. Can you find it? Can you feel it?

If you believe that nothing matters, then that is the lens you will view life through and that belief will blind you to what truly is real. What is it? What could possibly be real in a world of illusion?

WW
I don't know what is real at the moment. Even emotions. Like love, for instance. Isn't that a construct, ultimately? Do I actually love something, or is it my ego? I don't know what is real and what isn't. This girl I thought I liked, I would have jumped in front of a gun for her. I adored her that much. But now I feel like I'm being told this love isn't real, it is my ego. And what were my motives behind loving her in that way? If it was to give myself some sort of 'fullness', then it was all false anyway. Sure I loved her, and I always wanted the best for her and for her to be happy. I would go out of my way to make sure she was feeling good. And it made me feel good, too. But isn't this bad? Tolle does say relationships should be avoided!

Some guy on the TV this second just said, "I'm going to hug my wife when I get home, and my cat". And it sounded weird to me. People say that living in the now will connect you to nature and its beauty. Like a cat. But isn't the concept, and the feelings that come with it, of nature a construct? How do I know that I think a field of flowers is beautiful? Who says it is supposed to be...

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6536
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 pm

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm
I don't know what is real at the moment. Even emotions. Like love, for instance. Isn't that a construct, ultimately? Do I actually love something, or is it my ego? I don't know what is real and what isn't. This girl I thought I liked, I would have jumped in front of a gun for her. I adored her that much. But now I feel like I'm being told this love isn't real, it is my ego. And what were my motives behind loving her in that way? If it was to give myself some sort of 'fullness', then it was all false anyway. Sure I loved her, and I always wanted the best for her and for her to be happy. I would go out of my way to make sure she was feeling good. And it made me feel good, too. But isn't this bad? Tolle does say relationships should be avoided!

Some guy on the TV this second just said, "I'm going to hug my wife when I get home, and my cat". And it sounded weird to me. People say that living in the now will connect you to nature and its beauty. Like a cat. But isn't the concept, and the feelings that come with it, of nature a construct? How do I know that I think a field of flowers is beautiful? Who says it is supposed to be...
I think you'll have to point to chapter and verse where Tolle says relationships should be avoided. I haven't read much Tolle in a while so I can't say; but I don't remember him saying such a curious thing. He is after all in a relationship with Kim Eng. Everyone who has consistent contact with another is in some type of relationship whether it be simply social, business or intimate. Every consistent familiarity with another is a type of relationship.

Back to the point. Everything you say about what may or may not be real may well be true in the context you are seeing it. Whether the context is fair and accurate is another matter. We convince ourselves that emotions and conditions are one way, and later we may find we misconstrued it. That's common. So what you imagined was real may not have been what you believed it to be. Whether it be love, the body you have, or the chair you sit in, a closer look in a different context may change our perpective. There is however, an element to each of them, and everything else, that is real.

There is a commonality to loving another and to being mistaken about that love. The same is true of sitting in your chair or taking a walk on a rainy day. It's all the same, and it's a valuable guide to this entire life we live.

WW

pabl692
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by pabl692 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:28 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 pm
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm
I don't know what is real at the moment. Even emotions. Like love, for instance. Isn't that a construct, ultimately? Do I actually love something, or is it my ego? I don't know what is real and what isn't. This girl I thought I liked, I would have jumped in front of a gun for her. I adored her that much. But now I feel like I'm being told this love isn't real, it is my ego. And what were my motives behind loving her in that way? If it was to give myself some sort of 'fullness', then it was all false anyway. Sure I loved her, and I always wanted the best for her and for her to be happy. I would go out of my way to make sure she was feeling good. And it made me feel good, too. But isn't this bad? Tolle does say relationships should be avoided!

Some guy on the TV this second just said, "I'm going to hug my wife when I get home, and my cat". And it sounded weird to me. People say that living in the now will connect you to nature and its beauty. Like a cat. But isn't the concept, and the feelings that come with it, of nature a construct? How do I know that I think a field of flowers is beautiful? Who says it is supposed to be...
I think you'll have to point to chapter and verse where Tolle says relationships should be avoided. I haven't read much Tolle in a while so I can't say; but I don't remember him saying such a curious thing. He is after all in a relationship with Kim Eng. Everyone who has consistent contact with another is in some type of relationship whether it be simply social, business or intimate. Every consistent familiarity with another is a type of relationship.

Back to the point. Everything you say about what may or may not be real may well be true in the context you are seeing it. Whether the context is fair and accurate is another matter. We convince ourselves that emotions and conditions are one way, and later we may find we misconstrued it. That's common. So what you imagined was real may not have been what you believed it to be. Whether it be love, the body you have, or the chair you sit in, a closer look in a different context may change our perpective. There is however, an element to each of them, and everything else, that is real.

There is a commonality to loving another and to being mistaken about that love. The same is true of sitting in your chair or taking a walk on a rainy day. It's all the same, and it's a valuable guide to this entire life we live.

WW
Do you think that ET loves Kim? In the traditional sense of 'love'? I know you can't speak for him. He just seems so emotionless to me. Also, I don't think that is in one of his books. But I am certain that I saw him say it on a video on YouTube.

I'm really sorry WW, this is draining me far too much. I have never felt like this in my entire life. My opinion at this moment is that this all seems like some of nihilism.

What's the point in trying to be a good person and help others? If suffering is a construct, then why do we need to help others escape something that isn't real?

I've avoided my friends today. I was asked to go out this evening, but I just get thoughts like they aren't real, or what I think they are. You might say they are unconscious. So are they bad? Should they be avoided?

Is it a bad thing to be unconscious? People that live from day to day, like I did, trying to do the right thing and live a good life, is there anything actually wrong with that? Are they lesser people?

I don't want to be provocative, please please forgive me if you think I am doing this on purpose. I swear to you I'm not. I approached all this with an open mind, but for someone with the mental structure that I clearly have, this is all very very scary. I don't know if I have the capacity to come to terms with it.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6536
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:46 am

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:28 pm
Do you think that ET loves Kim? In the traditional sense of 'love'? I know you can't speak for him. He just seems so emotionless to me. Also, I don't think that is in one of his books. But I am certain that I saw him say it on a video on YouTube.
Knowing the teachings of ET that I do, I think you are misinterpreting what he said on relationships. I suggest you let that thought go until you can confirm it by relocating it. I don't think he would suggest such a thing. And while ET's personality seems a little drab, I remember him with a unique wit that jokes in his own way.
Is it a bad thing to be unconscious? People that live from day to day, like I did, trying to do the right thing and live a good life, is there anything actually wrong with that? Are they lesser people?

I don't want to be provocative, please please forgive me if you think I am doing this on purpose. I swear to you I'm not. I approached all this with an open mind, but for someone with the mental structure that I clearly have, this is all very very scary. I don't know if I have the capacity to come to terms with it.
I read this and find it a bit amusing. Of course it's not bad. On the contrary, it's fulfilling a primary purpose in life. I've teased you with the possibility that there is something real in all our life circumstances, even though technically this world is mostly illusion. Look close enough and all matter is over 99% space. Everything just looks and feels solid. It's primarily just energy vibrating at unique frequencies interacting with other unique energies. It's quite creative.

One thing that seems to concern you is the reality of your own being. That you are self-aware should lay that to rest. How can you be aware of being and not be? That said all those identifying factors that make up your personality and sense of identity may not be accurate in the greater scheme of things, but it doesn't discount your existence as a conscious being. That you are conscious of self at all certifies that you are real.

As reality of being is not in question, what is? Consider this: do you think of yourself the same now as you did when you were six? Not likely. You are an adult now and see yourself as one. The point is the qualities of self identification, and beliefs we hold about who we are, change over time. It's a natural maturing process. What doesn't change is the sense of being itself. Only the qualities and components of that sense change. You are consciousness being... human.

Okay, so back to my teaser about what is real. You're concerned that there is no point in anything if it's not real. So if something were real, something vitally important there would then be purpose to that reality. Yes? Think about it. If illusion doesn't matter then reality does. Only reality. These are not my concerns, but yours.

So here is what is real - EXPERIENCE!

If the human you and me and everyone else is an illusion, it still remains a real experience of being human- even if the experience is of the illusion of being human. You believed it at the time so the experience of believing it was real. You think you love someone and it goes bad. Was it real. Maybe not the relationship you believed was there, but the experience of its success or failure, or whatever the dynamics were, was genuine experience of whatever it appeared to be.

Experience is cumulative. We get to take it with us. When hiring someone for a job, their past experience is a valuable commodity. Don't you want someone who knows what they are doing on things that matter? Beginner level is not so important. But as anyone gathers experience in life that person becomes more valuable to a greater cause. Experience is real and this human life offers us, the self-aware consciousness, the opportunity to gather experience.

The good news is, it doesn't matter whether that consciousness, that self-aware person, is awakened to it or not. Experience is still gained. It's real, it's valuable, and it's our Forever. Awakening changes the context of it somewhat, and quickens the pace on what kind of experience is desired, but it's all worth more than the limited human mind can comprehend.

What you are going through now is a real experience, and in the long run will serve you greatly. No doubt it's a bit painful at present, but you can change that by embracing life in what ever way feels right and feels best. There is no right or wrong way. It's all about the experience and what it can teach us - either now if we are paying attention, or later when we acclimate all we have experienced into our greater evolution of consciousness and being. It's all golden.

So go have some fun and stop analyzing it so much. Get into experience, and worry less about its texture. A cool breeze is still pleasant, and stubbing your toe still hurts. Both are worth paying attention to for the experience they bring us. Be gentle with yourself. You are valuable to your own greater being and to life itself. Not so much for your body and feelings, but for the experience you gain and bring to reality.

WW

pabl692
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by pabl692 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:02 am

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand some parts of your post WW, I'm sorry. It all seems quite abstract to me. Maybe I am way off, but I've said before, I am of limited intelligence. I'm honestly not that smart, I need things in basic English :lol:

You say go and have fun and enjoy the experience...

What do you do for fun? Do enlightened individuals still enjoy the same things that others do? I appreciate how you might lose interest in some things. Perhaps the things you did to project an image of yourself to others. But I honestly can't really say I've ever really took up a hobby or interest just to project an image of myself to other people. I know I sound ridiculous, but do you still enjoy a football game? Do you still enjoy a joke? Or, now you have no ego or very little ego, do you have no interest in these things? If not, can't you appreciate that things like music, sports etc are all interesting creations?

There are some parts I subscribe to, I will be completely honest. I believe that meditation is powerful, in the sense that it can serve to rest the mind. I believe that we do form an image of ours that isn't necessarily real. I also agree that the world, aside from nature, is all a construct which makes me question why we play along with it?

I have thought about that question quite a bit in my life. Why do we go along with it? My answer has always been that ultimately, we are animals that have developed over millions of years, and more recently have developed greater creative thinking abilities than other animals that inhabit the planet. Why? I don't know. Perhaps, by chance. Or perhaps in a few more hundreds of thousands of years, other animals will developed similar abilities, too. We have just evolved a bit quicker. I don't know. Then I think we have created these civilisations out of our best collective interests. Whether we like them or not, or agree with it, it does give us some sort of structure. Scientific research continues to explain more and more about the universe we live in. We are intelligent animals, with the ability to create and do wonderful things. So, why not?

I'm not a religious person, which is perhaps why I remain skeptical of much of the talk on here. A lot of it seems to tie in with religious thoughts surrounding a higher being and the ultimate source. Maybe my interpretation of all this is wrong, but I can't subscribe to that. When we die, we die. It goes black. Our bodies decompose. Our minds are the motherboards for our bodies. When we die, it rots away with this rest of us. We have no soul which lives on. It's the end, that's it.

I know I am rambling. My brain is fried. I'm in a state of anxiousness, that's all. Because I guess I sort of agree with some things that ultimately, render everything I've ever known, sort of false. Of course I'm bound to feel a bit anxious. It's not like I can just go, "oh, that's fine, let's crack on then, sell all my possessions and let me live in a field where I can enjoy the bliss of the presense". I wasn't being sarcastic there, either. Again, that's just the impression that I feel individuals such as Tolle wish society to be like. If everyone else had the same realisation, I'd be down for it. But I don't like being alone.

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6536
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:53 pm

Pabl. I've read your post and realize that you don't understand my message about the importance of experience because our frame of reference is quite different. I've tried to express it to you in terms that would be meaningful to you but you don't yet see the context in which it makes sense. I've been at this a long time. I turn 70 this year. I've been studying and exploring consciousness for 50 years and I'm still at it. As to enlightenment, we are all on the path of conscious expansion and evolution. I sit somewhere on that path, as do you and everyone else. What is enlightenment? It depends on which direction one looks.

Your context is apparently a physical one, as you cite animal evolution as primary to your beliefs and world view. Of course evolution exists when it comes to form, but there is a larger evolution that relates to spirit and consciousness. Animal/human form evolution will pass eventually. It will run its course. The sun will burn out, or an asteroid will destroy the earth, or some other extinction event will have its way tomorrow, or a few million years from now. Your body and mine will likely give it up sometime in the next several decades. It's a temporary experience.

I'm talking about what lasts beyond this temporary experiential platform. Consciousness. Spirit. That self-aware consciousness that incarnated here in the first place. Nothing I say will make much sense from the context in which you are viewing it. There is a larger reality that exists that created this universe, this environment. Our true home. If you really want to make sense of what I'm attempting to convey, I suggest you make a study of near death experiences. There are countless people who have experienced them and have seen the greater reality. There is also a great deal of research being conducted in this field. Several excellent discussions exist in these pages. Look in the 'Beyond The Physical' section to find them.

There are also many very good websites dedicated to the study. There are links in the same section. If you want to discover more about 'reality', you will likely find it discussed in that NDE research. You may actually find it 'enlightening'.

WW

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6295
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:16 pm

pabl -

You have created an interpretation of ET that I think I can summarize here: "everything we know and do in society is a social construct, driven by ego and therefore false." Please correct me in your reply, as needed, and please also cite the specific reference in Tolle.

But, for the moment in this post, let's say my first sentence is essentially true.

What do we know about ET's life, from his writings and other public statements? He has a loving relationship with Kim Eng. He likes hot soup, he almost confronted some people in the park who were abusing an animal. He smiles a lot and listens carefully....none of those fundamental facts of his life support your interpretation.

ET does give some suggestions on how to wake up (inner body awareness, be aware of the space between thoughts, walk in nature, listen to the audio version of "Stillness Speaks," etc.) You have had some occasional experiences of Presence which you describe as essentially being more aware of your surroundings (the side door in a building, etc.)

But, fundamentally, pabl, you have not had a breakthrough experience to validate your basic concept, so it is perfectly natural that you should be very upset at believing it. An awakening experience brings with it a loving element of Grace that is utterly absent from your belief.

And, until you actually have a permanent shift, you will be stuck with your cognitive dissonance. By this, I mean that you will no longer be able to value "normal human compassion, normal joy in music and food and companionship, normal love for another, etc..." because you are stuck believing a philosophical position that is not accompanied by the relief and joy that actually comes with an authentic and abiding experience of Pure Awareness. You belief is expressed elsewhere - check out 'nihilism' and read Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" for other examples of this existential emptiness with a logical foundation. (And reading the Sartre is a big challenge, for sure!)

So, I'm saying that it's sad but normal to suffer, believing your basic interpretation, absent an authentic experience of awakening. Like others here, I encourage you to find a local spiritual teacher (Rupert Spira, Tim Freke, others) who can guide you. And spend more time with sadhanas that bring momentary peace.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

pabl692
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by pabl692 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:53 pm
Your context is apparently a physical one, as you cite animal evolution as primary to your beliefs and world view. Of course evolution exists when it comes to form, but there is a larger evolution that relates to spirit and consciousness. Animal/human form evolution will pass eventually. It will run its course. The sun will burn out, or an asteroid will destroy the earth, or some other extinction event will have its way tomorrow, or a few million years from now. Your body and mine will likely give it up sometime in the next several decades. It's a temporary experience.

I'm talking about what lasts beyond this temporary experiential platform. Consciousness. Spirit. That self-aware consciousness that incarnated here in the first place. Nothing I say will make much sense from the context in which you are viewing it. There is a larger reality that exists that created this universe, this environment. Our true home. If you really want to make sense of what I'm attempting to convey, I suggest you make a study of near death experiences. There are countless people who have experienced them and have seen the greater reality. There is also a great deal of research being conducted in this field. Several excellent discussions exist in these pages. Look in the 'Beyond The Physical' section to find them.

WW
Right so, firstly, thank you for your response. That made a lot more sense. I actually can see what you are getting at and what, ultimately, this might all be about. All I ask for is plainer language. I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, couple this with a completely fried mind, I find unfamiliar and quite abstract language difficult to understand.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I'm not a religious person. I do believe that when we die, unfortunately, everything just goes black. Our bodies rot and decay into next to nothing. I don't believe that our spirits lives on. I don't believe in life after death. When the sun eventually swallows up the earth, and all the other stars die etc, I don't know what happens. But I'm afraid I don't believe in any sort of creator.

Please at this point, do not think I am I deliberately being provocative. I absolutely, completely respect your own views and beliefs. I'm just not sure I believe in the experiences that people who have had near death events have witnessed anything divine or 'higher', if you will. I would explain it as the brain misfiring in a certain way, creating lucid situations or images in the mind. I know someone who actually died before being resuscitated. He was technically dead for a good while. But he doesn't remember anything. He just says it was no different to being asleep. The next minute, he was waking up. My explanation (I might absolutely be wrong here... I likely am. As I say, not the brightest bulb in the pack!) would be that in some cases, there is activity within the brain that create these illusions.
Sighclone wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:16 pm
pabl -

You have created an interpretation of ET that I think I can summarize here: "everything we know and do in society is a social construct, driven by ego and therefore false." Please correct me in your reply, as needed, and please also cite the specific reference in Tolle.

But, for the moment in this post, let's say my first sentence is essentially true.

What do we know about ET's life, from his writings and other public statements? He has a loving relationship with Kim Eng. He likes hot soup, he almost confronted some people in the park who were abusing an animal. He smiles a lot and listens carefully....none of those fundamental facts of his life support your interpretation.

ET does give some suggestions on how to wake up (inner body awareness, be aware of the space between thoughts, walk in nature, listen to the audio version of "Stillness Speaks," etc.) You have had some occasional experiences of Presence which you describe as essentially being more aware of your surroundings (the side door in a building, etc.)

But, fundamentally, pabl, you have not had a breakthrough experience to validate your basic concept, so it is perfectly natural that you should be very upset at believing it. An awakening experience brings with it a loving element of Grace that is utterly absent from your belief.

And, until you actually have a permanent shift, you will be stuck with your cognitive dissonance. By this, I mean that you will no longer be able to value "normal human compassion, normal joy in music and food and companionship, normal love for another, etc..." because you are stuck believing a philosophical position that is not accompanied by the relief and joy that actually comes with an authentic and abiding experience of Pure Awareness. You belief is expressed elsewhere - check out 'nihilism' and read Sartre's "Being and Nothingness" for other examples of this existential emptiness with a logical foundation. (And reading the Sartre is a big challenge, for sure!)

So, I'm saying that it's sad but normal to suffer, believing your basic interpretation, absent an authentic experience of awakening. Like others here, I encourage you to find a local spiritual teacher (Rupert Spira, Tim Freke, others) who can guide you. And spend more time with sadhanas that bring momentary peace.

Andy
That would be my interpretation, yes.

My question would be, Tolle might enjoy his walks in nature and he will find it beautiful, but who, ultimately, says that nature is beautiful? Isn't this just a construct? The same with him almost confronting those abusing an animal. Is it only a social construct that determines/suggests that what they are doing is morally wrong.

I have just read a little bit of Satre, and I suppose it would sum up my feelings. I just can't understand how only negative emotions and negative thoughts can be determined to not be us? But positive one can? And that ultimately, love comes from somewhere else and is everything.

I'm just not sure I subscribe to the idea of a higher consciousness. If this consciousness was supposed to be the most important thing we can ever experience, why do we not experience it by default?

Thanks again to you both. I hope you're well :)

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6536
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:40 pm

pabl692 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:49 pm
I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I'm not a religious person. I do believe that when we die, unfortunately, everything just goes black. Our bodies rot and decay into next to nothing. I don't believe that our spirits lives on. I don't believe in life after death. When the sun eventually swallows up the earth, and all the other stars die etc, I don't know what happens. But I'm afraid I don't believe in any sort of creator.
I'm not suggesting you believe anything. I only suggest you get a clear understanding of the phenomena. Ignorance is no solution to any problem. Information only increases your learning and growing possibilities. You might also consider that you are struggling in life with your current belief system. I am not. Nor have I for the bulk of my life. Sure, there are always challenges, but that comes with the territory.
I'm just not sure I believe in the experiences that people who have had near death events have witnessed anything divine or 'higher', if you will. I would explain it as the brain misfiring in a certain way, creating lucid situations or images in the mind.
While brain health clearly affects conscious perception, there is no evidence what so ever that consciousness originates there. On the contrary, similar to NDE accounts, OBE practitioners report consistent ability to remain conscious far removed from the physical form. Check out the many practitioners from the Monroe Institute. Thomas Campbell and William Buhlman are two well worth studying. Campbell is a physicist so his writing is bit heady and technical, but Buhlman is pretty down to earth. Of course there is Monroe himself. He's where I started this whole journey of exploration way back in 1971.

Consider this analogy. The brain is like a radio. It's designed to transmit and receive messages. If damaged however, it will not function properly. That doesn't mean the radio waves that brought you music is not still surrounding the non functioning device. Smash it to bits and the radio won't function at all. Still the music plays on in a form not heard by the human ear.

I would also suggest that it doesn't matter what you or I believe as true. What matters is what is true beyond our beliefs. The only way to get clearer on that is to challenge what we believe as a matter of course in life. The old saw "argue for your limitations and they will certainly be yours", comes to mind.

In any case it's your life, and you can proceed as you wish. You came with concerns and I offer the benefit of many years of 'experience' as pointers to a happier, more interesting life. As with everyone, it's your choice in how to proceed - and the results are yours alone. It's really cool how that works in life. If I can be of any more assistance, feel free to ask. Here's wishing you good journey and great joy in life.

WW

pabl692
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:27 am

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by pabl692 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:41 am

I genuinely hope that you have thought I've been arrogant or ignorant towards you, I promise you, hand on heart, that I haven't. You are clearly a very nice person and hugely intelligent. I admire how open you are, too. I know I can come across provocative at times, it was never my intention. I am genuinely curious about all this.

What's more I take your point. There is no way I can disprove what you are suggesting, of course.

I'll investigate further what you have suggested.

Still, my concerns remain. I'm still struggling to see how everything is not an illusion if we are not really 'us', when we think.

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4519
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by kiki » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:21 am

Let me just say this: Don't think about trying to figure out if the world is illusory. The truth is you have to live in this world, so go about your business and do what needs to be done in the moment it arises. What you need to see/understand/grok/realize, however, is that the world isn't what you believe it to be as seen through the egoic perspective. Without any input from the ego the world simply is as it is.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

Dcs
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:01 pm

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by Dcs » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:57 pm

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm
I don't know how I can read a book at the moment. I can't even function. I don't see the point in anything, genuinely. I swear I'm not just saying this for a response, but this how I see it sat here right now. Sure I will try and meditate, if only to just try and get some sense of calm. I can't do anything, I just want to sleep, sleep, sleep.
I'm sorry to hear that. But don't worry; when the moment that you are better comes, you'll be able to decide which alternative you want to try. :wink:
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm
My points remain, however. If the root of suffering is social constructs, and everything is a social construct and as such they should be avoided, then what do we have left?

I can enter the 'now', sure. People say that they reconnect with nature and see the beauty in everything. But who says that nature is beautiful? Isn't that a social construct? Isn't EVERYTHING a social construct? Isn't the beauty of the 'now' a construct? Who says it feels good?

What is the point in anything, if it is all a construct, and therefore an illusion, and not real. Only it becomes real in your mind, which involves creating a thought, which are not permitted, as thinking leads to suffering. Do you know what I mean?

So, what are we left with? Well, sure we can just do what we want and not feel bad about it. That makes sense.
You are doing the same that I warned you in my previous post, do you remember? Hehehehehe. You are concluding some things, thinking they are right, but they aren't. That's not about any of these.
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:04 pm
I will try and meditate (...)
Yes, just do that. Drop the conclusions that you think are right, and just meditate. :- )

Listen: I guess I already writed all I could think that would help you. So, unless you have a specific new question to me (and you can ask without problem), probably I'm not going to write in this topic anymore.

Oh, and don't worry about this being nihilist. It's not important and relevant, but "I" am "atheist" and I guarantee, from my own experience, that it is not a nilist practice, hehehehe.

Good luck, my friend. :- )

User avatar
turiya
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:14 pm
Location: CA

Re: Can anyone help me, please?

Post by turiya » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:03 am

Hi pabl :D

Sorry for the delay in response.
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
I went in a pet store and was looking at fish. I observed the colours etc and I seemed quite at peace. I was enjoying not thinking about other stuff. I turned round and noticed the shop.had boxed up hundreds and hundreds of little crickets and grasshoppers in boxes, still alive. I watched them. They was struggling to get out. I saw them suffering and I felt terribly. I wanted to set them all free.

However, you would say that these feelings are not me, they are my ego.
Yes, I'd say these (any) feelings are not you; they are temporarily arising in you. Yet, they don't become "your ego" until you identify with them... i.e. until you believe that they are "my personal" emotions/feelings, and you allow them to take you over, losing yourself in them.
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
As ultimately, nothing is real.
Ultimately, you are what's real (not as the limited ego but as limitless Consciousness/Presence). Consciousness/Presence/the Now = Reality = You = the Essence of Everything.
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
All emotions are a fabrication of the mind
I'd say the identification with emotions is the fabrication, not the emotions themselves. Emotions (as well as thoughts) can be great and powerful guidance tools/servants (if you use them as such... but if you identify with them, they end up using you... you become their servant.) Emotions such a love, joy, and peace can serve to confirm that the mind is in alignment with Reality. Emotions such as hatred, depression, and anxiety can serve to alert you that the mind is out of alignment with Reality and that self-investigation/inquiry is needed.

So, for example, when you felt terribly (perhaps sad, angry, frustrated?) at seeing the suffering of those crickets, your emotion is alerting you that "something's off". So, you investigate. In investigation, you might find the thought accompanying the emotion is, "This shouldn't be happening!" And yet it is happening... Then you might notice that your "terrible feeling" is getting all it's energy from the clash between your mind (arising as the thought, "This shouldn't be") and what is. Being the witness of this interplay prevents you from identifying with your feelings... so that you don't futilely and destructively explode into blind rage or implode into depression. Instead, you remain clear, focused, and present. Effective, constructive action can only come when you are clear, focused, and present.
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
So my love for animals is all false.
When love arises in you for animals (or for fellow human beings or the natural environment, etc.), it is an emotion serving to confirm that the mind is in alignment with Reality. If, however, you identify with that love (making it personally "yours" and clinging to it) you become blinded by it. Then the love will become egoic and, as a result, you might feel the need to possess, manipulate, and control what or who you love... and that only generates suffering for you and your beloved.

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
Its just sent my anxiety through the roof.
It sent your anxiety through the roof because you know deep down that the thought, "So my love for animals is all false" isn't true. :wink:
pabl692 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:52 am
But isn't the feeling of peace and joy that you might feel from being in the present therefore false, and ultimately, your ego?
No, it's the identification (clinging/grasping/possessing...) with these feelings that is false... that is a form of ego.

Maybe this clears some things up? At least, I hope I haven't added to the confusion. Anyway, feel free to ask more questions. I may or may not have any answers. :D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

Post Reply