Is conscioussness an idiot?

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Astan
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Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Astan » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:32 am

There is a lot of talk about consciousness which is beyond body, feelings, thoughts etc.
I understand the idea that we are not a body and feelings (let's skip the fact they are interconnected with each other and thoughts).
I also understand that we are not compulsive thoughts.
But despite of this there are also deeper thoughts.
If I want to do anything I need to first use intention. And this is also a thought.

If I leave the body, the feeling, the memory and the thoughts, what will left? Stupid animal/plant, who only receives stimulus.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:21 am

I tend to agree. Experience matters, and without all those trappings you cite, what is left to experience? Maybe something, but much less than a human life's potential.

WW

Dcdc
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 pm

Astan wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:32 am
If I want to do anything I need to first use intention. And this is also a thought.
When you practice a lot, you'll be able to be really present, without thoughts, for longs periods of time. When you are in a state like that, you'll realize that you don't necessarily need to think or have a intention in order to do things. You can act without these. It is the famous "greater" "entity" that ET - and other presence's teachers - talks about when they explain how you can "work" in a deep presence state.

You can see using your only eyes that you won't be just something that receives stimulus if you are present and thought-free. You will be able to decide to walk, to stop to walk, to raise a glass of water to drink, to open some door, to talk, etc, even without thinking.

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:07 pm

Dcs wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 pm
When you practice a lot, you'll be able to be really present, without thoughts,... When you are in a state like that, you'll realize that you don't necessarily need to think or have a intention in order to do things.
Hmm... Don't you have to have a desire and subsequent intention to get free of thought constructs, to begin a practice of living more in presence awareness? Isn't the basis of any choice a prerequisite intention?

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:06 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:07 pm
Dcs wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:46 pm
When you practice a lot, you'll be able to be really present, without thoughts,... When you are in a state like that, you'll realize that you don't necessarily need to think or have a intention in order to do things.
Hmm... Don't you have to have a desire and subsequent intention to get free of thought constructs, to begin a practice of living more in presence awareness? Isn't the basis of any choice a prerequisite intention?

WW
Yes, sure. What I mean is that (in my opinion) you don't have to rationalize that intention in order to act. In another words, when you are walking, for example, you don't need necessarly to think "now I'm going to stop" in order to stop. We kind of do that a lot of times - and there's nothing wrong of that, of course -, but we can do things without rationalize the intention before. But indeed "something" (that we can call intention, sure) works in the "background".

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:16 pm

Dcs wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:06 pm
Yes, sure. What I mean is that (in my opinion) you don't have to rationalize that intention in order to act. In another words, when you are walking, for example, you don't need necessarly to think "now I'm going to stop" in order to stop. We kind of do that a lot of times - and there's nothing wrong of that, of course -, but we can do things without rationalize the intention before. But indeed "something" (that we can call intention, sure) works in the "background".
That certainly applies to the simple things you cite, but wouldn't you agree that rationalization increases with the complexity of carrying out any given intention? Walking and stopping are relatively simple concepts. Consider then, walking across a busy roadway. Among the many tactical considerations of getting across safely is also the wisdom of attempting a crossing at all. What I'm saying is that intention and rationalization work together in negotiating the many challenges in life.

That said, I would agree that elements such as instinct and insight are beyond simple rationalization. There is a wide range of useful tools available in our perception.

WW

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:36 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:16 pm
Dcs wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:06 pm
Yes, sure. What I mean is that (in my opinion) you don't have to rationalize that intention in order to act. In another words, when you are walking, for example, you don't need necessarly to think "now I'm going to stop" in order to stop. We kind of do that a lot of times - and there's nothing wrong of that, of course -, but we can do things without rationalize the intention before. But indeed "something" (that we can call intention, sure) works in the "background".
That certainly applies to the simple things you cite, but wouldn't you agree that rationalization increases with the complexity of carrying out any given intention? Walking and stopping are relatively simple concepts. Consider then, walking across a busy roadway. Among the many tactical considerations of getting across safely is also the wisdom of attempting a crossing at all. What I'm saying is that intention and rationalization work together in negotiating the many challenges in life.

That said, I would agree that elements such as instinct and insight are beyond simple rationalization. There is a wide range of useful tools available in our perception.

WW
I agree. In my opinion, for one hand, we have this incredible tool: the mental form and rationalization. Using that, we can indeed do a lot of complexity and solid projects/actions, as cars, planes, life's carrear, short, medium and long-term planning, etc. Although it is form, our thinking and rationalization are powerful and can indeed work together with intention to deal the many challenges in life. I use that a lot, hehehehehe. But, for another hand, in my opinion, we don't necessarily need to think and to rationalize when we are going to do every single action. Sometimes the planning is robust, but the next action is simple, for example.

I only talked about that because I think we can "prove" that actions don't necessarily need a voice comming before every single time. Some people don't agree with that - and that's ok, of course.

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by rachMiel » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm

Astan wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:32 am
If I leave the body, the feeling, the memory and the thoughts, what will left? Stupid animal/plant, who only receives stimulus.
Interesting question!

I've been experimenting with pretty much exactly what you describe. I'd been reading about AI's and thought "I wonder what it would feel like to *be* an AI?" So I dropped everything, physical and mental, except that which I needed to perform the tasks of the moment: drive home from work, shop in a supermarket, take a walk.

The feeling was ... well ... there was really no feeling. No emotions, qualia, intuition. (Except in those situations where the task at hand required feeling. And even then, it was clinical rather than impassioned.) It was a kind of full-on emptiness, but not the good kind (sunyata). More blankness. A living-deadness, kinda sorta. But fully able to perform whatever needed to be performed, i.e. whatever the situation called for.

What I learned from this: Though a highly streamlined, efficient way to live, being an human-AI leaves something to be desired. ;-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:22 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:37 pm
Astan wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:32 am
If I leave the body, the feeling, the memory and the thoughts, what will left? Stupid animal/plant, who only receives stimulus.
Interesting question!

I've been experimenting with pretty much exactly what you describe. I'd been reading about AI's and thought "I wonder what it would feel like to *be* an AI?" So I dropped everything, physical and mental, except that which I needed to perform the tasks of the moment: drive home from work, shop in a supermarket, take a walk.

The feeling was ... well ... there was really no feeling. No emotions, qualia, intuition. (Except in those situations where the task at hand required feeling. And even then, it was clinical rather than impassioned.) It was a kind of full-on emptiness, but not the good kind (sunyata). More blankness. A living-deadness, kinda sorta. But fully able to perform whatever needed to be performed, i.e. whatever the situation called for.

What I learned from this: Though a highly streamlined, efficient way to live, being an human-AI leaves something to be desired. ;-)
I think I understand what you are talking about because I already felt this way some times in the past while I was doing the practice. I can be wrong, but, in my opinion, this feeling changes when we stay in that emptiness more time. In another words, I think that this feeling happen just (maybe) because we are not used to it (comparing the years and years we pass on our thoughts and the time we actually practiced being in the present moment). For me, after a while, this human-AI perception changes to a peaceful sense of happiness, while the senses aren't dead, but more powerful and strong than ever.

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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by rachMiel » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:39 pm

I wondered about this ... whether I just didn't give it enough of a chance to flower.

So, in your experience, the feeling of flatness/affective-vacantness morphed eventually into a sense of peaceful joy?

One of the things I ran into when I was experimenting with being-an-AI is that my mental/physical actions (paying attention, observing, doing) became very minimal and streamlined. Only that which was needed to 'navigate' the moment was deployed. If, for example, I was sitting in a room without needing to do anything (use a computer/phone, talk/listen to someone, read a book, etc.) I would go into a kind of dormant state, mind quite blank, physical actions limited to holding my body in a comfortable position in the chair. I found this to be peaceful and relaxing. But from time to time I'd think: How sad that I'm not observing/experiencing the beautiful flowers over there or the way the sun is filtering in through the shades. Interestingly, this only happened when I slipped out of the dormant state!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Dcdc
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:42 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:39 pm
I wondered about this ... whether I just didn't give it enough of a chance to flower.

So, in your experience, the feeling of flatness/affective-vacantness morphed eventually into a sense of peaceful joy?

One of the things I ran into when I was experimenting with being-an-AI is that my mental/physical actions (paying attention, observing, doing) became very minimal and streamlined. Only that which was needed to 'navigate' the moment was deployed. If, for example, I was sitting in a room without needing to do anything (use a computer/phone, talk/listen to someone, read a book, etc.) I would go into a kind of dormant state, mind quite blank, physical actions limited to holding my body in a comfortable position in the chair. I found this to be peaceful and relaxing. But from time to time I'd think: How sad that I'm not observing/experiencing the beautiful flowers over there or the way the sun is filtering in through the shades. Interestingly, this only happened when I slipped out of the dormant state!
For me, it's very difficult to talk about the practice's experiences because we have to put into a form something that is before it. What I can say is that I take the mindfulness/presence part of the practice really seriously, and I bring my self to the present moment the most that I can 24/7. In the beginning, when my mind wasn't used to the practice and to the present moment, it was difficult to stay present, and it was very strange when I could do it; but I didn't care and just continued to do it... After a while, it started to become easier, natural and joyful. It isn't a "dead", "zombie" or "AI-just-what-is-needed-to-do" sensation at all. The practice changed my hole life.

If you ask me, in my opinion, we have to drop theories, expectations and attachments and just bring our self to the present moment the most we can. Let's give to our conscioussness some time to live and see what happens. :- )

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rachMiel
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by rachMiel » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 pm

Gotcha.

Mindfulness is quite different from the being-an-AI state I'm experimenting with.

Mindfulness is intentional observation without judgement. It is a conscious paying attention to things without letting discursive thought jump in and hijack the observation to spin into the ongoing ME story.

The being-an-AI state is doing (mentally and physically) the minimum that is needed to perform the tasks that the present situation calls for. If paying attention is needed, you pay attention, if it's not needed, you don't. I guess one could argue that the present moment always calls for attention ... but that seems like a stretch to me, a desire to achieve something: awakening, enlightenment, equanimity, etc.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Loffe
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Loffe » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:03 pm

Hi rachMiel.

How does this AI state feel? Is it lacking clarity? Like its peaceful but numb?
Loffe

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rachMiel
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by rachMiel » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:30 pm

Hi, Loffe.

Try it out! It's easy to do ... if you feel an affinity with machines and playing make-believe.

For me it feels kind of attribute-less, which is why I keep saying 'blank.' But if I had to describe it I'd say: calm and restful. Clear in the sense that I am ready for what presents itself. But not in the sense that I am paying intense attention to whatever happens to be happening. Make sense?

Cool pic, dude!
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

Dcdc
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Re: Is conscioussness an idiot?

Post by Dcdc » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:09 pm

rachMiel wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 pm

The being-an-AI state is doing (mentally and physically) the minimum that is needed to perform the tasks that the present situation calls for. If paying attention is needed, you pay attention, if it's not needed, you don't. I guess one could argue that the present moment always calls for attention ... but that seems like a stretch to me, a desire to achieve something: awakening, enlightenment, equanimity, etc.
I really believe - and, if I'm not wrong, science has proven it already - you indeed can't just not pay attention to nothing. You, of course, can do a open-presence practice and not paying attention to something intentionally, but every second of your life you are paying attention to something, even if you don't realize that, even if it is for seconds and even if it is to your mind. You can just change the object of your attention, intentionally or not. I thought that AI-state you are talking about was the result of the open-presence practice, because I felt exacly as you said when I started it.

Besides that, usually I'm very "slow" and kind of do the minimum (mentally and physically) that is needed to perform the tasks that the present situation calls for, hehehehehe. So, another point in common. :- )
Last edited by Dcdc on Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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