do we die? how do you understand it?

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Fiona_W
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do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Fiona_W » Sun May 19, 2019 4:50 pm

I think I'm making a fair amount of progress in understanding the basic message of non-dualism, although I have a ways to go in assimilating ongoing Presence into my daily life. But there's one part of the package, at least such that I've read it so far, that I can't seem to make sense of: to put it bluntly, that we are not born and we do not die.

I've encountered this teaching in multiple places. Just to quote one example, here's Rupert Spira, from his book Presence, Vol. I: The Art of Peace and Happiness:

Are we, aware Presence, sitting in a room now, or are sensations and perceptions appearing to our self? And is that self not the very same self that was aware of the appearance of the body, that is aware of its disappearance in sleep every night and will be aware of its final disappearance at death, and is now aware of these words?

Have we changed and grown old as the body changes and grows old? Was it not our self, this very self that is present now, that was aware of the infant, the child, the teenager and the adult in all their forms and throughout all their changes?

When the body and mind disappear during sleep, does our self disappear? Who is present to witness such a disappearance? That one must be present and aware. Our self has no experience of its own disappearance. Who would be present to witness and claim such a disappearance? Only our self!

And if we claim that our self dies when the body dies, who is the one that knows or experiences that death? Is it not our self alone that could make such a claim? If the death of our self is a real experience and not simply a belief, then we must be there to know it and remain afterwards to claim that it happened. The experience of death proves that we do not die, just as the experience of change establishes our self as its changeless knower. If there is no experience of the death of our essential being, why presume that it ever takes place?


I find Rupert Spira to be very good at clearly unfolding the subtle implications of becoming aware of one's own Awareness. But after reading those words... I'm lost.

The way I understand it, "I," the aware Presence, is aware of the disappearance of its consciousness in sleep every night, but "I" do not go away during sleep, even during non-dreaming sleep. However, "I," the aware Presence, will be aware not only of the disappearance of its consciousness at the moment of death, but of its fundamental "I am."

I'm trying very hard here not to say my consciousness or my awareness, but rather the Awareness that we all, fundamentally, are.

Don't we indeed die in the sense that our individual "I am" dissolves into the universal "I am"? Doesn't that constitute death, for an individual human being?

How do you understand death?

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Webwanderer
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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm

Fiona_W wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:50 pm
Don't we indeed die in the sense that our individual "I am" dissolves into the universal "I am"? Doesn't that constitute death, for an individual human being?
My take is that death has several components in its unfolding. The first component is of the physical form no longer being able to support a self-aware consciousness. (Life of course, continues in the form, just not organized by the previous consciousness and therefore breaks down through natural decay.)

The second component is the transference of the self-aware consciousness to another, non-physical, dimension of existence. This could be any number of possibilities depending on how strongly the self-aware consciousness holds on to certain accumulated beliefs.

The third component is the releasing of the belief system of identification that was coalesced into the sense of a separate individualized human person. In conjunction with component two, a new sense of physical like realities may be formed and adopted as such.

The fourth component is the recognition of pure energetic consciousness as our natural home. This puts the human experience into its true context as an exploratory adventure into designed consciousness developing possibilities. There are likely many such adventures in the ongoing evolution of Consciousness.

The fifth component is the recognition that while we are a part of a Oneness and connectedness with All That Is, there remains a sense of self through our own Unique Perspective within and inclusive of this Infinite Oneness, this All That Is.

I'm not suggesting that these components take place linearly as numbered. Just that they are all elements of the process.

As one might imagine, this remains a work in progress.

WW

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by turiya » Mon May 20, 2019 12:17 am

Fiona_W wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:50 pm
do we die? how do you understand it?
The way I understand it:

We as apparently separate, finite bodies/minds are born, live, and die. So, in that sense, yes, we do die.

But are these appearances who/what we really are? No.

In reality, we are the one, eternal, infinite Awareness in which these (all) appearances come and go. So, in that sense, we don't die (and were never born).

I like this quote from the Power of Now: "Death is the stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to "die before you die" -- and find that there is no death." :D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Alicia » Mon May 20, 2019 6:44 pm

I've had many ideas/theories about death/afterlife throughout my life thus far, but I've now come to the profound realisation that I don't know.

I BELIEVE that our energy print, or consciousness, is what survives in some form. The experiences I've had in the past and those a friend of mine has had to lead me to believe there is definitely some aspect to the person who has died, that goes on after their physical death, but I don't know how far their identification with their previous form remains, or if at all. This is what I think corresponds to what we experienced as the awareness/stillness inside ourselves that is the same from birth until death. There is an essence that always feels the same no matter what and that is, to me, the energy print. It is the consciousness that illuminates all form but exists beyond it.

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Fiona_W » Tue May 21, 2019 8:29 pm

I appreciate how thoroughly you've thought through all your different components of Death, Webwanderer, and thanks for explaining them so clearly. But one of them seems a little odd to me, so I'm going to quote it back and ask you to elaborate a bit.
Webwanderer wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 5:51 pm
The second component is the transference of the self-aware consciousness to another, non-physical, dimension of existence. This could be any number of possibilities depending on how strongly the self-aware consciousness holds on to certain accumulated beliefs.
How would the strength of the accumulated beliefs of the self-aware consciousness affect the form of the transference to another dimension of existence? That sounds like, for example, if you strongly believe you've going to become a ghost, then you'll become a ghost. Huh?

Fi

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue May 21, 2019 9:08 pm

Fiona_W wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 8:29 pm
How would the strength of the accumulated beliefs of the self-aware consciousness affect the form of the transference to another dimension of existence?
Take for example, if one has a strong belief in certain Christian teachings relating to Heaven and Hell. When that one dies he/she may find their way to a reality of Pearly Gates, streets of gold, and Jesus figures. Should Mohamed be the strong belief there may well be a Muslim based reality. It's the same for most anyone with a strong belief in the nature of the next life.

Even so far as a ghost, if one is emotionally attached to some traumatic event, a related reality may be experienced. There are several experienced out of body explorers who practice what they call 'retrievals'. This is a practice of helping those trapped in an emotionally created mindset-reality to break free of it.

My sense is that the best mindset to approach what happens after the death of the body is one of of openness, curiosity, and a desire for leaving strongly imagined notions behind. In other words, a clean break of all beliefs in favor of a larger reality.

WW

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Fiona_W » Wed May 29, 2019 4:33 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:08 pm
My sense is that the best mindset to approach what happens after the death of the body is one of of openness, curiosity, and a desire for leaving strongly imagined notions behind. In other words, a clean break of all beliefs in favor of a larger reality.
I like that. Well said! I also want to say that I appreciate Alicia's and turiya's contributions to this thread.

I guess what it gets down to, for me, is that I can't get my mind around the "die before you die" concept that Eckhart Tolle espouses. I don't feel as though I'll know how I'll feel until I get there. I hope that I will have enough time, when it happens, to reflect on all these notions and face the next stage with that openness and curiosity WW is talking about. I don't feel any particular fear about death, but I do sometimes wonder if I will have a sense of regret about the things that I didn't get to do in this lifetime. Ah well...

Fi

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Dcdc » Thu May 30, 2019 4:06 pm

We'll never die. "Die" is just a word which we arbitrarily created to refer to an idea. The language itself is a creation (form).

Think about it: nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed. Literally.

The atoms of iron, carbon, and oxygen that are in your body right now, for example, exist in the universe since forever. Literally. They were not created in you, they were just allocated to form the event that you are, just like in any event on the planet as well. Before you were "born", these atoms, for example, were part of other events.

What is going to die is just a mental concept, that is your ego. It is just a notion of who you are based on mental projections and memories. But you are not your ego. You'll never going to die, because you are not a separate "thing" that has a beginning and an end. Nothing is.

If we were our ego, people who lose their memories in accidents (and therefore do not even remember their names) would automatically die. So, we are not our ego.

Sure, when we die, our "persona" that has a name, a nationality, etc., will not live anymore. But our trueselves (that is the universe as well, because everything is just one "thing") will live forever. We'll change to another events. Maybe a "part" of us will compose a body of a new animal. Maybe a "part" of us will be water. Maybe a "part" of us will be in the air. Nothing is permanent, and this process will continue to happen forever.

In my opinion, not wanting to accept the reality of the end of the ego is the main reason for the creation of most religions. People suffered when faced with the fact that their egos will not be eternal, and used our mental projection to create imaginary worlds that continue that ego forever. There are thousands upon thousands of mental projections and stories about what happens after we die. For me, is just illusions.

Religion comes from the Latin word "religare," which means "reconnect," or "connect one thing to another that was previously connected." As if there were separate things that could be connected.

There is no such thing. Everything is one, and the reality is: we are not our ego, and definitely it is not eternal. But our true self (which is the universe) is.

We will not die. Just our ego, which is only a product of a mental operation.

That's is how I look to it. In my opinion, not identifying with the ego helps a lot to deal with death. But I could be wrong, it is just my opinion, hehehehe. :- )

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu May 30, 2019 4:39 pm

Fiona_W wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:33 pm
I guess what it gets down to, for me, is that I can't get my mind around the "die before you die" concept that Eckhart Tolle espouses.
I totally get what you're saying here. Sometimes teachers get a bit too cryptic for their message. My take on 'die before you die' is to relinquish our attachments to our adopted identifiers before we die physically - thus dying in a practical identification sense before the actual physical event. Let go of every belief as it relates to our human identity. None of it will be particularly helpful in an environment of Consciousness in a larger reality.

In fact human form attachments are more likely to hold us in an environment based on beliefs that no longer apply to that larger consciousness universe. That is the nature of our enormous creative potential.

WW

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:05 am

Webby, your 'work in progress' is brilliant, you seem (to me) to be widening your understanding to allow all the multiple awareness states to coexist without thinking one might contradict another - just yum. I smiled so big reading it :) and what a lovely thread to read, thank you all.

Fiona you might enjoy a brilliant book that illustrates the second component of belief, and how it also impacts us here In Heaven as on Earth by M Scott Peck.

I've just been rereading Practising the power of the now and so it's fresh. By dying to yourself often (if necessary) and fully you don't build up hardened concepts of limited self, to worry about or defend, or in opposition to 'what is' from that fixed perspective or stance.

We recognise action coming out of energy in what is - be that energy born of love (gratitude, generosity, compassion), or energy of resistance to what is. Energy of creation and destruction are one, emotions of joy or sorrow are flowing from the same source, awareness of the space between the stars, or falling into the myriad of incredible tingly to the senses, colour nuances of warm and cool reflected light setting a cool blue sky alight with yellows and orange and purple and white and pink in a sunset glow that will stop thoughts in their tracks and touch every crevice of your attention and being in a glorious explosion that lasts ... both for barely a moment, and eternally. (sorry I got carried away lol... it was an awesome sunset last night).

Fiona, what triggers you to totally 'disappear'', but remain aware? In fact bring you more alive?

e.g. my body may have been standing, mouth open in awe, eyes and skin and hair shining with the amazing reflected contrasting hues that were touching me from the western sky, my ears were clearly hearing the call of a birdsong from a few streets away and car noises telling me to move off the middle of the road, and suburban hum and chatter but ... there was no 'me', no separation between me and any of it from the cold hard bitumen of the road, the breeze blowing through trees and down streets, the electric energy of the sun's rays reflected, the mushiness of the sky... etc It's a bliss. an intangible, indescribable .... melting.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:18 am

Dcdc said: In my opinion, not wanting to accept the reality of the end of the ego is the main reason for the creation of most religions. People suffered when faced with the fact that their egos will not be eternal, and used our mental projection to create imaginary worlds that continue that ego forever. There are thousands upon thousands of mental projections and stories about what happens after we die. For me, is just illusions.
Here's a 'thought' Dcdc, what if like us, religions started with an an awareness of the totality and eternal and all encompassing nature of love-creation energy, most have it at their core, and then power/ego/fear steps in to distort the message, contain the message, prescribe the message, in culturally satisfying ways. Then the message gets dressed up and splinters from that awareness (like us).
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Re: do we die? how do you understand it?

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:31 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:05 am
Webby, your 'work in progress' is brilliant, you seem (to me) to be widening your understanding to allow all the multiple awareness states to coexist without thinking one might contradict another - just yum. I smiled so big reading it :) and what a lovely thread to read, thank you all.
Thanks for the feedback Jen - nice from someone who's had a first hand look.

WW

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