What are we?

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Webwanderer
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Re: What are we?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:21 pm

Glad I could help.

Here's something from my world to consider. If I'm just a figment of your imagination, my congratulations to you on your incredible mind. You must be God then. There is after all a world of conscious experience over here that I engage in on a daily and ongoing basis. You should see the stuff I do and the fun I have. Yeah, I get beat up a little sometimes as well but I can handle it. (We do need to talk about that though!!!) If I am indeed your figment, then you are doing one hell of a job. Keep up the good work :D

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pabl692
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Re: What are we?

Post by pabl692 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:56 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:21 pm
Glad I could help.

Here's something from my world to consider. If I'm just a figment of your imagination, my congratulations to you on your incredible mind. You must be God then. There is after all a world of conscious experience over here that I engage in on a daily and ongoing basis. You should see the stuff I do and the fun I have. Yeah, I get beat up a little sometimes as well but I can handle it. (We do need to talk about that though!!!) If I am indeed your figment, then you are doing one hell of a job. Keep up the good work :D

WW
Haha I see what you are saying there. And, logically, it does make sense. But my mind doesn't seem to work exactly as it should. It struggles to deal with doubt. And it is something that I will never be able to prove, I guess. It's not so much that I am the one imagining everything and creating the reality, it's more what if everything is a dream. When we dream, do we chose what is happening? I have had thousands of dreams where I have been in places I've never seen or imagined before. Where does that come from? I don't know. What is to say that this isn't a dream and I am alone.

People might question whether it matters as, ultimately, the experience is all the same for me. But that seems rather selfish. Like I could hang around the girl I am seeing purely for selfish reasons, to make me feel good. But part of it, for me, is mutual enjoyment. If she isn't real, like a simulation, then what is the point?

This might all sound crazy to you. But it is so hard to describe how it feels in my head. If you Google solipsism OCD, it's clear I am not alone. Well, if people are real, that is. haha.

I find that the darker nights here in the UK really mess with my head. I am becoming anxious again. This time of year I always seem to be anxious. Summertime I generally fine. But the dark nights are horrific here. And it is knowing that they are here until probably late April next year. It's tough.

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Re: What are we?

Post by Webwanderer » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:45 pm

pabl692 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:56 pm
...it's more what if everything is a dream. When we dream, do we chose what is happening?
Do we? Yes and no. In many dreams, if not most, we seem not to be in any control. We seem to have no real choice as to the dream content. But in some dreams, we can wake up to the realization that it is a dream and we can take control and make decided choices. Lucid dreaming is becoming far more common as the phenomena becomes better understood and techniques are developed to aid in the dreamworld awakening.

There is a step beyond lucid dreaming known as out of body experience or OBE. In this world, many of the characters are autonomous. Others still dream like. There are reportedly multiple dimensions available to the one adept at moving among them. There are lots of books on the subject from experienced travelers. These worlds seem to be the same as those who experience temporary death through physical trauma or NDE's.

All of this makes for some intriguing study and investigation.
What is to say that this isn't a dream and I am alone.

People might question whether it matters as, ultimately, the experience is all the same for me. But that seems rather selfish.
For the sake of conversation, what would make it selfish? Think about it. The very assumption that it could be considered selfish directly suggests that there is another to be selfish from. :shock:

If everything you do is selfish, then can anything be selfish? What is there to compare it to? There has to be something, or someone, to be inconsiderate of to actually be selfish in our denial. If you are alone then there is no one to be selfish to. Of course this is just a logic exercise, but it's an accurate one. We all understand the nature of selfishness and it always has to do with our relationships with others.

Now there is no judgment here. We all make choices in our own best interest. Even if that choice is to sacrifice in favor of another, we do so for our own reasons. It may be love, loyalty or duty, but there is always something emotionally active in our decided actions in favor of another. And yes it may also be selfish in our sometimes lack of concern for others, but the outcome of our choices are the grist for our learning and growth as spiritual beings.

Observing and learning is the value of and in this life and can be looked upon as the wonderful opportunity that it is. In any case, whether we pay attention now or review it later, we can always profit from our experience.

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Re: What are we?

Post by pabl692 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:44 pm

Hi again,

I think, for now at least, I have gotten past that particular worry. I need to just not engage in trying to figure it out for a while. It might come back, I don't know.

But thanks for your response and your persistence. As usual, I am hugely grateful.

I am always going to be worried about the debates surrounding free will. Whether there is a self or if we are just our brains and we think we are pulling the strings. That scares me.

I know WebWanderer you said that the brain is like a machine. Could you expand on what you mean? You see the brain as a receiver for consciousness. But we can be conscious outside of the body... so why do we need the brain? To limit ourselves? And how do we use it? Which part of me thinking and which part is the brain giving me things. How do I use it?

Earlier I was in the office at work and we was trying to remember the name of student. I was desperately searching. I felt like I was doing the searching but using a tool to search. Or is all just my brain just trying to get to the bottom of it.

I have thought, however, if we are just products of random brain activity or hard wired to just reproduce and survive, why don't we just do it endlessly? We isn't life just us constantly frolicking?

Just trying to get my head around a few things. The idea we are just products of brain activity is not a nice thought at all for me. I really hate it. But sometimes I sit and I notice a thought and I think where on earth did that come from?

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Re: What are we?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:29 am

pabl692 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:44 pm
I know WebWanderer you said that the brain is like a machine. Could you expand on what you mean? You see the brain as a receiver for consciousness. But we can be conscious outside of the body... so why do we need the brain? To limit ourselves? And how do we use it? Which part of me thinking and which part is the brain giving me things. How do I use it?
The following is just my take on the nature of the human experience after a lifetime of study, meditations and considerations. It may seem a bit 'out there', but the greater reality is something I've always been attracted to. It remains a work in progress. Do with it what you will.

I think it best to view this human life as a designed limitation. But designed from what and by whom? Without actual memory from experience, it's a bit challenging to see what is going on. It's not impossible however. That is the gift of imagination. More importantly, imagination based on a genuine interest on how life actually works.

As a Being of energetic consciousness, eternal in scope, infinite in possibilities, there is a question of 'how do we get there from here?' One possibly useful way is to limit consciousness in forms of isolation in order to explore interactions with other elements of consciousness under unique conditions. The human experience is one such possibility, for whatever reasons, we chose to explore.

The human experience, with its human brain, is a step down mechanism and a local storehouse of locally attained information in the form of sensory and analytical information. Consciousness, being temporarily focused primarily into the information gathered and stored in the brain as memories, perceptions and assumptions, can explore experience in a uniquely limited fashion. (You may have to read that a couple of times)

It (Consciousness) can assume a temporary identity based on that locally gathered information and then live and act from that identification to gain experiential understanding of how energy flows in this environment. This information can eventually be translated into higher life lessons that are useful in the expansion and evolution of our higher consciousness and being.

The brain then, is just a mechanism to create uniquely limited perspectives through which to explore possibilities in experience. Human consciousness generally relies solely on the what's in the brain to traverse its way through life. It's not complete isolation however. Our larger consciousness perspective has a vested interest in our explorations and experience. It is after all, the ultimate beneficiary of what it (as we) do here.

That is not to assume 'we don't exist'. The fundamental sense of self we inherently have is the element of being that remains throughout all such life experiences. What changes over time and life experiences, is the perspective that 'self' holds. Just as a sense of self is pretty much the same during a dream experience as when awake, what changes is the perspective governed by the environment consciousness is focused in, to include all the information stored and used in assuming that (or any) perspective.

Much of it is deep in memory and subconscious. It important to note that the left and right brains function quite differently. While most of our conscious active thinking goes on in the left brain, much of the spontaneous, out of seemingly nowhere thoughts, are born of the right. So, much of your concern over where these curiously random thoughts come from may just be that the left brain is not yet able to readily see what the right brain is doing. Quality meditation allows these two elements opportunities in cooperation.

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Re: What are we?

Post by pabl692 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:19 am

My apologies I didn't get back to you. I thought it might be best to have a break from it all. Trouble is, I find it very difficult to escape this.

The whole no self thing is hard to disagree with. Now I am not disregarding the experiences people have in NDEs and OBEs - I simply don't know what they experienced or if it was legitimate.

I just can't get past the belief that consciousness is born out of the brain. And that, ultimately, we are just a product of brain activity. It takes in information and responds by use of memories to the best it can for that circumstance.

I really find it difficult to believe that we even have free will. Are we just robots? I don't see how there could be any way in which any living thing might operate with free will. We have inputs and outputs. Our actions are just our outputs. Even me typing this now, how is it happening? Am I, as in me, Paul, consciously choosing the words I want to use, or is my brain putting it all together as best it can, like a computer would?

I'm getting really tired. I just don't know what to think. I hate the idea that humans are just chemical reactions, but to me, as far as I can see, that is really all we are. I hope I am wrong. I'd love to have an experience whereby I could really understand the non-physical, if it exists.

Is everything we do just born out of a need to satisfy some part of our brain?

Say I see a beautiful sunset. Or I wake up in the morning, open the curtains and the fields are covered in frost and it looks very beautiful. The shapes, the colours... they all look beautiful because my brain is hardwired find certain shapes and colours beautiful, right? It is not me who is actually having a subjective experience, rather those shapes are triggering a reward/joy circuit within my brain. It is not me. There probably is no me.

I was really looking forward to the upcoming weekend. I had some Christmas festivities planned (not massively religious, but I like the spirit of Christmas). I was supposed to be going away on a short trip with my girlfriend. But life loses its magic when I just think we are chemical reactions.

Still, it is incredibly to think I am here and conscious. I feel I have a sense of self and I kind of feel as though I have a certain degree of control. However, there has to be a causal reason for everything. As in, I find X fun because a part of my brain is wired that way. Not because I like it. How could anything like anything else without programming?

I know I go on a bit, but does anyone see my point? IF we are just chemical robots, what is the point in this experience? It makes zero sense.

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Re: What are we?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:12 am

pabl692 wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:19 am
Even me typing this now, how is it happening? Am I, as in me, Paul, consciously choosing the words I want to use, or is my brain putting it all together as best it can, like a computer would?
What is the Paul you cite that 'has' a brain? You specifically said 'my brain'. Who or what is 'my'? Does a brain have consciousness? Or does consciousness have a brain? Or maybe both? In fact drop the Paul label and just consider the non attached awareness that is capable of adopting ideas to identify with.

It's nearly impossible to carry on a discussion without the me, my, I, pronouns. Why is that? You can change all the labels and identifiers the brain memories may hold, but the sense of self that considers this or that cannot be changed. It's always me, my and I. Consider, you can say you have a brain, but can you identify as a brain and say something about having a consciousness? It just doesn't work. It's not natural.

We cannot have a consciousness like we have a brain simply because consciousness is fundamental to being where a brain is an object.
I know I go on a bit, but does anyone see my point? IF we are just chemical robots, what is the point in this experience? It makes zero sense.
So answer your own question if you can. IF we are chemical robots what is the point? Compare that with the possibilities of IF we are spiritual conscious beings. What could be the point from a perspective of a larger conscious reality making use of human experience. One has no answers, the other has countless potential answers.

WW

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