Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

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axetenuz
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by axetenuz » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:15 pm

wsmcasey

One is a rather baffled not only by the contents of your post since it has nothing to do on "certainty/uncertainty" that i was discussing, but also the fact that you have directed it to me. Since one's participation on this thread hasn't been with you and since I have never spoken to you before, your comment seems random and out of place. Whatever your reason is to write to me i will let you deal with that, but since you have communicated with me I will try to address the content of your message:

I rarely quote anyone since it makes the mind/person a second hand parrot that is standing on the foundation of borrowed words and perhaps a tad cowardly/ "untruthful" for hiding behind other's words, but i find the quotes you have given rather interesting.

Regarding the quote by Ram Dass, my take on it is one should always speak the truth, even if it may be unpalatable to its recipient, and may lead to some knee jerk reactions, which is usually the case. In such cases the "love" behind the "truth" won't be seen by the recipient/s, obviously.

Along the lines and in regards to the quote by your mom, the "nicest" thing while saying anything to anyone is to focus on the points rather than the person. And, to focus on the "truthfulness" of what one is saying rather than false pretenses. False pretenses isn't nice but rather ugly, no?

In relation to the biblical verse i will say, anyone who is capable of the two things mentioned above is already in conformity with the verse.

Peace be to you as well.
Last edited by axetenuz on Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:26 pm

As to attacks, one has no idea what you are talking about, you must be confusing me with yourself and your buddies. Should you wish i will take you up on any offers on a dedicated inquiry to look at the facts of any alleged "attacking". Shouldn't be hard since the history of excanges/postings are in print.
Below is your recent post. I had intended on ignoring you, but because you invited the highlighting of your attacks I decided to respond.

As you seem 'certain' that 'one' has no idea what I'm talking about, I highlighted some of the more blatant examples of your attacks. You could have made these same points without such liberal use of pejoratives, but you 'chose' to express disdain through you comments rather than simply explore through open minded discussion.

Now you have another choice to make. Will you deny the obvious? Or will you seek to improve your dialog with those whom you disagree?
axetenuz wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:43 am
Anyone saying certainty is dangerous have to demonstrate it in their conduct. They have to show a willingness to walk into the middle of uncertainty and to face it head on, not run away from it at the first challenge of what may seem like an uncertain idea/person/situation. Not try to weasel out of that feeling of uncertainty but to be open to what it has in store for them in order to get to a larger understanding. Only a true skeptic will be able to do this. There is thread in this forum called ‘certitude and doubt’ that goes into this in a bit more detail. This kind of healthy skepticism isn’t within the pay grade of "believers" who like to delude themselves with comforting but false stories.

Parroting a belief in openness and living it are obviously two different things. It is the believer’s belief that closes the door for further exploration. Beliefs are the opposite of healthy skepticism and it is very easy to be locked in beliefs as it is comforting and prevents any encounters with uncertainty or the unknown.

Furthermore, certainty is not an absence of doubt or uncertainty but rather a full exercising of the same. Certitude is the fragrance of following doubt/uncertainty to its end where it has no option but to resolve itself. It is not something silly like "choosing" to be or not to be certain. We have as much power over that as we have in the growing and falling of teeth, which is none.

Lastly, the claim that certainty isn't relevant is laughable. The claim itself contains the desire for certainty within itself. The entire movement of humanity is to find certainty either in matter or the so called spiritual. Look at yourselves, look at your efforts.

Therefore the poster couple of posts above seems to be expressing his beliefs on certainty, rather than any true factual insight into the matter, as evidenced from the contradictions in his statements, not even factoring the discrepancies in conduct.
One last thing. I recommend that you read our forum rules. You may have missed them when you came to the forum. Here's one in particular to consider:

8. Respect Each Other and Each Other's Opinions


As I've read another of your responses to a valued forum member, consider it a warning.

axetenuz
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by axetenuz » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

WW

Still obsessing over the person and not on the topic?

I invited you to an inquiry. An inquiry isn't an one sided "highlighting" but both inquirers together looking at facts. In other words you will also consider the points i will be highlighting. Are you giving me that chance? If so then we will have to start from the beginning and go over my exchanges with all of you, which again, are in print. I will like to highlight not only the subtle digs by you but the nasty attacks by these valued members you mention, who kept coming back on my thread even after one had stopped the discussion, and then tried to to troll me on another thread which again is documented. Their unsuccessful attempts to get a rise out of me is again documented. All that has to be looked into. Are you willing to do it and substantiate your accusations? If so then we can start from the beginning anytime you are ready.

As to your warning, :-) i got a chuckle out of that. I will stop all postings and leave the forum in a second, if that's what you wish, do you wish that? Let me know.

Again, i understand all you folks reactions . Please don't obsess over me and go around wasting your energy to attack, control, or change me, you will fail each time. If my presence is a problem here just let me know.

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:12 pm

axetenuz wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm
As to your warning, :-) i got a chuckle out of that. I will stop all postings and leave the forum in a second, if that's what you wish, do you wish that? Let me know.
Works for me. You bully people, and I don't particularly want to follow you around monitoring your comments. I don't care that we don't agree. That's common in all forums. I do care how you interact with others on this forum. If you have a problem following the rules, and respectful decorum in general, maybe another, more combative forum, would better suite your demeanor. I invite you to find one.

WW

axetenuz
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by axetenuz » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:50 pm

The problem with what you are saying about me is, it isn't substantiated by any evidence. Since the evidence substantiates what i am saying about you and the gang you call valued members, it is understandable why you would not want want the inquiry i was proposing. In any case, so be it.

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by oak tree » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:17 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:14 pm
I was also wondering, what can actually be done to rest as awareness? I understand that you can't do something that you already are but there has to be something that can still be done in terms of ceasing something.

I think practising self enquiry, as recommended by Ramana Maharshi, will lead to resting as awareness. This is one way.

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by kiki » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:11 pm

Nyseto wrote:
I was also wondering, what can actually be done to rest as awareness? I understand that you can't do something that you already are but there has to be something that can still be done in terms of ceasing something.
We are constantly doing something, oftentimes without even realizing it. For example, if I said to relax your muscles in order to do that thoroughly you'd need to observe closely where in the body you are holding tension. A full body scan from head to toes will reveal where tension is being held unconsciously, so when you recognize each of those areas it's only a matter of relaxing and letting go of the tension.

With that in mind do some investigating of what you are doing not only physically but mentally. Learn to recognize all of the ways you are doing something with the mind. For example, are you unconsciously naming/labeling what is seen or experienced in the body; are you judging yourself in any way, feeling pride or embarrassment, or judging situations, people or events; are you comparing things/people or evaluating anything at all; are you projecting into the future with hopes or fears or remembering the past with regrets or fondness; are you retelling the 'story of me' in any of its varied forms; are you entangled in any story at all about anything. These are all human tendencies and they are so habitually engrained in us we seldom realize we are doing them, but in most cases they don't have to be be done. So, when you recognize any sort of mental doing you have a choice to continue or to stop.

Getting the idea? So, each time you discover any tendency to stray into any of these (or whatever else you discover you are doing) relax and return attention to now, to the present. You've given yourself an opportunity to stop because you've revealed and recognized a kind of 'doing'.

Stay present by simply feeling your own existence in the here and now. This is how you cease 'doing' and simply 'be'. In other words, you are learning to UNDO what has heretofore been unconscious/unrecognized doing. As you create more and more gaps between 'doings' you are allowing the expansiveness, silence, stillness and peace of awareness to reveal itself in a natural and spontaneous way. This is the 'being' aspect of human beings.

Rest in/AS that awareness and remain alert to any subsequent doing that arises. Over time you'll become alert more quickly to mental activity as it arises, then let go of that as well if it isn't needed at that particular time. To begin this I recommend sitting down with eyes closed for short periods of time to get the hang of it, maybe 5 or 10 minutes to begin with and then lengthening the time to 20 minutes several times a day.

As you get more proficient you'll discover you can 'do' this even while in activity. A good entry activity to cease mental doing is household chores. Stay focused on the chore itself rather than thinking about other things or complaining/thinking about what you are doing. Let attention remain on the felt experience of washing dishes, cleaning floors, bathing/shaving/brushing teeth or hair. Stay with the felt experience only. It's all about retraining attention, directing it away from thought-stream and onto the awareness that is 'seeing'/witnessing what is going on.

Edited to add: When mind is necessary to accomplish something then use it for whatever activity is being performed. It is a tool to be used and then allowed to drop away when not needed. The paragraphs above are only applicable when that tool is no longer necessary, and it's surprising how little the mind is actually needed each day. Don't worry, when you need it it will be available, when not needed it can drop away quite easily.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Nyseto » Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:25 am

kiki wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:11 pm
Nyseto wrote:
I was also wondering, what can actually be done to rest as awareness? I understand that you can't do something that you already are but there has to be something that can still be done in terms of ceasing something.
We are constantly doing something, oftentimes without even realizing it. For example, if I said to relax your muscles in order to do that thoroughly you'd need to observe closely where in the body you are holding tension. A full body scan from head to toes will reveal where tension is being held unconsciously, so when you recognize each of those areas it's only a matter of relaxing and letting go of the tension.

With that in mind do some investigating of what you are doing not only physically but mentally. Learn to recognize all of the ways you are doing something with the mind. For example, are you unconsciously naming/labeling what is seen or experienced in the body; are you judging yourself in any way, feeling pride or embarrassment, or judging situations, people or events; are you comparing things/people or evaluating anything at all; are you projecting into the future with hopes or fears or remembering the past with regrets or fondness; are you retelling the 'story of me' in any of its varied forms; are you entangled in any story at all about anything. These are all human tendencies and they are so habitually engrained in us we seldom realize we are doing them, but in most cases they don't have to be be done. So, when you recognize any sort of mental doing you have a choice to continue or to stop.

Getting the idea? So, each time you discover any tendency to stray into any of these (or whatever else you discover you are doing) relax and return attention to now, to the present. You've given yourself an opportunity to stop because you've revealed and recognized a kind of 'doing'.

Stay present by simply feeling your own existence in the here and now. This is how you cease 'doing' and simply 'be'. In other words, you are learning to UNDO what has heretofore been unconscious/unrecognized doing. As you create more and more gaps between 'doings' you are allowing the expansiveness, silence, stillness and peace of awareness to reveal itself in a natural and spontaneous way. This is the 'being' aspect of human beings.

Rest in/AS that awareness and remain alert to any subsequent doing that arises. Over time you'll become alert more quickly to mental activity as it arises, then let go of that as well if it isn't needed at that particular time. To begin this I recommend sitting down with eyes closed for short periods of time to get the hang of it, maybe 5 or 10 minutes to begin with and then lengthening the time to 20 minutes several times a day.

As you get more proficient you'll discover you can 'do' this even while in activity. A good entry activity to cease mental doing is household chores. Stay focused on the chore itself rather than thinking about other things or complaining/thinking about what you are doing. Let attention remain on the felt experience of washing dishes, cleaning floors, bathing/shaving/brushing teeth or hair. Stay with the felt experience only. It's all about retraining attention, directing it away from thought-stream and onto the awareness that is 'seeing'/witnessing what is going on.

Edited to add: When mind is necessary to accomplish something then use it for whatever activity is being performed. It is a tool to be used and then allowed to drop away when not needed. The paragraphs above are only applicable when that tool is no longer necessary, and it's surprising how little the mind is actually needed each day. Don't worry, when you need it it will be available, when not needed it can drop away quite easily.
Wonderful post. I am going to screenshot it and refer to it. I finally understand it now. The trick is abiding there 24/7. I used to wonder, how the hell do I just remain aware without paying attention? If I drive, I have to pay attention to the road. Instead I came to realize that awareness is paying attention in such a way where there is no "I" or "you" or "me". It's like paying attention to something without going towards it, instead it comes into the field of awareness AS itself so that thing was never "out there" to begin with.

Now here is the problem. Sometimes when I practice remaining as this awareness other than simply recognizing it when I'm mentally doing something like you've mentioned, it seems like my mind will get 10x worse as if it's coming with a vengeance. I start getting these feelings of panic.

Also you said the mind is just a tool. Does that mean you become a separate self again when you use it as a tool such as solving a math problem for example? Or is the mind being used as a tool in a way where there is no personal entity involved? I'm looking at it as you're putting forth some sort of effort and I thought the whole point of resting as awareness is to be effortless. Is it more of an effortless effort instead?
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by kiki » Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:44 am

Now here is the KICKER. Sometimes when I practice remaining as this awareness other than simply recognizing it when I'm mentally doing something like you've mentioned, it seems like my mind will get 10x worse as if it's coming with a vengeance. I start getting these feelings of panic and there's this seemingly tight grip that comes with them.
There are two major things to consider when this sort of thing happens. The first of these has several components: First, observe what's happening in the body. Feel it fully without resistance because resistance will only energize it and that will keep it in place. Second, do not judge it or yourself in any way because that too will give it more energy. Instead, deprive it of energy by withholding resistance and judgment. By simply observing it it will expend its energy all by itself and eventually peter out completely. Lastly, do not construct a story out of what's happening because that will lead you down all sorts of mental rabbit holes. The idea here is to keep attention away from thought-stream and focused on the actual felt sensation of it. So, don't interfere with it or try to manipulate it in any way.

The other thing is this, and this is perhaps more important in the long run in one's journey of awakening than the paragraph above: Investigate 'who' is having this experience? Who/what is this 'me' entity that is struggling with this issue? In other words, who/what am I really? Actually try to locate this 'me' that you believe yourself to be. Can you find an actual entity that is 'me'? Is there one, or is there only a catalog of 'stories about me'? Can 'you' be a story, a story that is continually changing, or is your true nature something deeper, something more profound, something transcendent to mental activity. When you do this you won't find a separate and distinct entity, which then begs the question: Who/what am I when there is no story of me running through the mind? What remains when no story, no thought and no belief arises. Whatever remains must be what you truly are. Discover the nature of whatever remains when all ideas abate.

This is called self-enquiry, and it is what Ramana Maharshi centered his teaching on. This is something you have to find out with actual investigation. It's not enough to adopt a belief about what remains - it's vital to go through an actual investigation. You don't have to wait for some challenge to come in order to do self-enquiry. Get in the habit of taking some time to sit quietly with eyes closed and do this self-enquiry when things are relatively calm and it will serve you well when the challenges appear. This is like building muscles so that when they are really needed they are ready to be used without strain or pain.

------------------

The discovery of true nature will lead to the dismantling of identification with thought/mind, and when identification begins to dissolve one begins to spend more and more time simply resting in/AS true nature. This is not to say identification will never rise again - it will, but it will be seen more and more clearly for what it is, just the arising of a certain kind of mental activity. When it's spotted for what it is there can be a relaxing back into true essence.
Also you said the mind is just a tool. Does that mean you become a separate self again when you use it as a tool such as solving a math problem for example? Or is the mind being used as a tool in a way where there is no personal entity involved? I'm looking at it as you're putting forth some sort of effort and I thought the whole point of resting as awareness is to be effortless. Is it more of an effortless effort instead?
I just saw your added question after I posted. Read this newest post closely and then follow my suggestion for using self-enquiry and you should discover this basic truth: There IS no separate self in reality. There is an apparent separate self that heretofore has been assumed to be real, but upon investigation it is only a mental creation that is identified with.

So, when mind is needed to perform a function then it will kick into gear and perform its function. There is no need to create a separate mental entity that is using it. Just let things unfold naturally, let it do its job and be done with it when no longer needed. 'See the job, do the job, stay out of the misery' as one of my early teachers used to say. The misery comes only when useless mental stories arise. To whom do they arise? Find out via self-enquiry.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Nyseto » Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:28 am

kiki wrote:
Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:44 am
Now here is the KICKER. Sometimes when I practice remaining as this awareness other than simply recognizing it when I'm mentally doing something like you've mentioned, it seems like my mind will get 10x worse as if it's coming with a vengeance. I start getting these feelings of panic and there's this seemingly tight grip that comes with them.
There are two major things to consider when this sort of thing happens. The first of these has several components: First, observe what's happening in the body. Feel it fully without resistance because resistance will only energize it and that will keep it in place. Second, do not judge it or yourself in any way because that too will give it more energy. Instead, deprive it of energy by withholding resistance and judgment. By simply observing it it will expend its energy all by itself and eventually peter out completely. Lastly, do not construct a story out of what's happening because that will lead you down all sorts of mental rabbit holes. The idea here is to keep attention away from thought-stream and focused on the actual felt sensation of it. So, don't interfere with it or try to manipulate it in any way.

The other thing is this, and this is perhaps more important in the long run in one's journey of awakening than the paragraph above: Investigate 'who' is having this experience? Who/what is this 'me' entity that is struggling with this issue? In other words, who/what am I really? Actually try to locate this 'me' that you believe yourself to be. Can you find an actual entity that is 'me'? Is there one, or is there only a catalog of 'stories about me'? Can 'you' be a story, a story that is continually changing, or is your true nature something deeper, something more profound, something transcendent to mental activity. When you do this you won't find a separate and distinct entity, which then begs the question: Who/what am I when there is no story of me running through the mind? What remains when no story, no thought and no belief arises. Whatever remains must be what you truly are. Discover the nature of whatever remains when all ideas abate.

This is called self-enquiry, and it is what Ramana Maharshi centered his teaching on. This is something you have to find out with actual investigation. It's not enough to adopt a belief about what remains - it's vital to go through an actual investigation. You don't have to wait for some challenge to come in order to do self-enquiry. Get in the habit of taking some time to sit quietly with eyes closed and do this self-enquiry when things are relatively calm and it will serve you well when the challenges appear. This is like building muscles so that when they are really needed they are ready to be used without strain or pain.

------------------

The discovery of true nature will lead to the dismantling of identification with thought/mind, and when identification begins to dissolve one begins to spend more and more time simply resting in/AS true nature. This is not to say identification will never rise again - it will, but it will be seen more and more clearly for what it is, just the arising of a certain kind of mental activity. When it's spotted for what it is there can be a relaxing back into true essence.
Also you said the mind is just a tool. Does that mean you become a separate self again when you use it as a tool such as solving a math problem for example? Or is the mind being used as a tool in a way where there is no personal entity involved? I'm looking at it as you're putting forth some sort of effort and I thought the whole point of resting as awareness is to be effortless. Is it more of an effortless effort instead?
I just saw your added question after I posted. Read this newest post closely and then follow my suggestion for using self-enquiry and you should discover this basic truth: There IS no separate self in reality. There is an apparent separate self that heretofore has been assumed to be real, but upon investigation it is only a mental creation that is identified with.

So, when mind is needed to perform a function then it will kick into gear and perform its function. There is no need to create a separate mental entity that is using it. Just let things unfold naturally, let it do its job and be done with it when no longer needed. 'See the job, do the job, stay out of the misery' as one of my early teachers used to say. The misery comes only when useless mental stories arise. To whom do they arise? Find out via self-enquiry.
Would you say that using anchors such as being aware of something in the present such as the breath or a tree, is only meant to direct you to awareness in an instant but the anchors themselves have to be dropped too? Because if you were to be aware of your breath 24/7, it would be extremely tiring and there's other things to focus on. When I heard about staying in the I am, I would find myself striving every minute to be in the I am. I couldn't even enjoy eating because I kept telling myself "stay in the I am". Maybe I keep doing all these things wrong. Instead of actually just being, my mind will obsess and think about being.

I can rest as awareness for a moment because I understand what you're saying but I can't prolong it. I become this seeming entity "trying to prolong resting as awareness". It's like I make an effort to not make an effort consistently...ending up actually not resting as awareness. I think I just found my answer writing this and I'm arriving at the same conclusion you mentioned. Abiding as awareness is more about not engaging your mind over and over again as opposed to the mind trying to not engage the mind. My mind has become so good at copying awareness that it's so hard to make the distinction at times. The only way to abide as awareness is to START with awareness but my mind absolutely abhors it. It feels like I'm disappearing. Obviously I must be doing it right if I constantly feel like I'm disappearing whenever I take some time to just rest as awareness. I can recognize awareness several times throughout the day for seconds at a time but whenever I go all out for a good 5 minutes not engaging my mind, that's when it starts hitting the panic button. For a few seconds it's fine because my mind knows it will have itself back quickly but as minutes go by, THAT'S when my mind's darkest thoughts come up. I have had several glimpses where I managed to breakthrough these dark moments and I felt like I was freedom itself, deathless, absolutely content. But getting there means I have to face some serious suffering that I just honestly would rather escape from. Those moments have left an unforgettable mark in my being that have been causing me to not identify with my mind even if I tried as if this deep conviction is slowly emerging which is stronger than my mind. It's as if this whole time I was never looking for the fire, the fire has been looking for me. I don't try to "disappear" as much anymore, I just find myself disappearing bit by bit everyday without my doing like some kind of grace from beyond. If I interfere with it, the awakening slows down in a way.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by kiki » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:20 am

Would you say that using anchors such as being aware of something in the present such as the breath or a tree, is only meant to direct you to awareness in an instant but the anchors themselves have to be dropped too? Because if you were to be aware of your breath 24/7, it would be extremely tiring and there's other things to focus on. When I heard about staying in the I am, I would find myself striving every minute to be in the I am. I couldn't even enjoy eating because I kept telling myself "stay in the I am". Maybe I keep doing all these things wrong. Instead of actually just being, my mind will obsess and think about being.
Anchors are useful when you are first starting out to reorient you back to awareness, sort of like training wheels until you have learned to balance between activity and awareness. It's like having one foot in activity while the other remains in awareness. At some point the reliance on anchors is no longer needed just as training wheels are no longer necessary.

Once you become familiar with what awareness is I would advise you to become fully engaged in whatever activity you are doing while simultaneously noticing the silence and stillness within. Don't make the mistake of turning this into a chore - just see if you can innocently feel/notice the underlying silence and peace while engaged in activity. This is like noticing the wave while realizing you are also the ocean upon which the wave temporally exists. In other words, enjoy the activity without 'forgetting' what you truly are.
I can rest as awareness for a moment because I understand what you're saying but I can't prolong it. I become this seeming entity "trying to prolong resting as awareness". It's like I make an effort to not make an effort consistently...ending up actually not resting as awareness. I think I just found my answer writing this and I'm arriving at the same conclusion you mentioned. Abiding as awareness is more about not engaging your mind over and over again as opposed to the mind trying to not engage the mind. My mind has become so good at copying awareness that it's so hard to make the distinction at times. The only way to abide as awareness is to START with awareness but my mind absolutely abhors it.
YES! Start as awareness - that's the key. Great insight on your part. Abhorrence is a function of mind/ego identity. Uproot ego via self-enquiry. It is ego that resists, that hates, that avoids. The arising of it is a strategy ego uses to keep itself as the 'director' of your life. Ego cannot imagine how you can survive without it, so it will do whatever it can to remain in control. In other words, it's another form of 'doing' that needs to be seen through.
It feels like I'm disappearing. Obviously I must be doing it right if I constantly feel like I'm disappearing whenever I take some time to just rest as awareness.

Yup, the I that you believe yourself to be disappears when mind abates, and this is usually scary for people, but withdrawing from letting that happen can delay awakening for years if you haven't seen the ego/I/me entity for the illusion it actually is. That's what happened to me. I was at a point in my meditation practice one day when my identity as a separate entity was about to drop away. It was like I came face to face with a wall but I didn't have the courage to keep going to discover what was behind the wall and instead recoiled in fear. What I didn't know at the time was that egoic identity was based on a false belief that was maintained out of habit, and fear was the ego's strongest ally to keep the habit cemented in place. It was another 12 years before I understood about the illusory nature of the ego. Once that happened things fell into place rather quickly.
I can recognize awareness several times throughout the day for seconds at a time but whenever I go all out for a good 5 minutes not engaging my mind, that's when it starts hitting the panic button. For a few seconds it's fine because my mind knows it will have itself back quickly but as minutes go by, THAT'S when my mind's darkest thoughts come up.
Abidance will happen at its own pace, but the common denominator that slows it down is fear. Again, fear is a function of the ego. Use self-enquiry to expose its illusory nature. This may take some time, so be patient with yourself. You can't force awakening, only allow it to unfold. Force is a kind of manipulation, but you can't manipulate yourself into being what you already are, you can only see the truth of what you already are and let things unfold in a spontaneous and natural way.
I have had several glimpses where I managed to breakthrough these dark moments and I felt like I was freedom itself, deathless, absolutely content.
Outstanding! Yes! You are freedom itself, deathless, absolutely content - these are the hallmarks of true nature.
But getting there means I have to face some serious suffering that I just honestly would rather escape from. Those moments have left an unforgettable mark in my being that have been causing me to not identify with my mind even if I tried as if this deep conviction is slowly emerging which is stronger than my mind. It's as if this whole time I was never looking for the fire, the fire has been looking for me. I don't try to "disappear" as much anymore, I just find myself disappearing bit by bit everyday without my doing like some kind of grace from beyond. If I interfere with it, the awakening slows down in a way.
I just love this section of your post - That's a great insight, and beautifully put. Once you've seen/realized true nature there is a natural impulse that gains momentum and invites you/propels/prods you to continue that won't leave you alone even if a lot of fear remains. There may even be a delay of years as happened to me, but that impulse will somehow lead you to a point where a breakthrough arrives. That breakthrough may be stimulated by something someone says or writes, it may be triggered by something seen or by a realization/insight that comes spontaneously and unsought. It's an organic thing that carries you forward. In other words, it's pretty hard to turn back by taking the blue pill once you've tasted real freedom.

Be patient, be open and allow awakening to take its natural course within you. All is well.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Nyseto
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Nyseto » Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:04 pm

Lol I think by being patient, you mean infinitely patient. I know all is well from the glimpses I've had but another way I've noticed my mind pulling me back is having the thought that I don't want to physically die to finally be liberated when I can be free this lifetime. Just how you mentioned how you ran into that wall meditating one time and it wasn't until 12 years you saw through it. That's 12 years of life. For some other people it's their entire lives except for the last few months of their life if they are terminally ill. I feel bad most for those who die instantaneously in an accident because they don't have the opportunity to really face that wall like someone would whose dying from cancer and knows they have months left. When a doctor tells you that you have months left, I feel like that's a very powerful incentive to drop the ego. But in the case of my wife's aunt who died from cancer, she suffered 100x more when she found out she had months left. My wife told me how she was angry with god the whole time because she believed it was too early to go when she had a family, etc. I'm only 27, so I guess the only thing I have to fall back on is being fortunate enough to be this young. I have only 20 or so years of conditioning to see through as opposed to 60. Because imagine seeing through the illusion at 80 years old. That would be one hell of a bittersweet experience because on one hand you finally see ahhh I'm free and on another hand you realize I have wasted 80 years. For 80 years I have unnecessarily suffered. Some people might say well that suffering lead to that awakening but awakening itself is seeing that suffering is unnecessary. You suffer only to see that it was unnecessary. That is one hell of a cruel joke

Best way I can put awareness is it's a not knowing, knowing. You don't know anything, there is only knowing by itself.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by kiki » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:46 am

Lol I think by being patient, you mean infinitely patient. I know all is well from the glimpses I've had but another way I've noticed my mind pulling me back is having the thought that I don't want to physically die to finally be liberated when I can be free this lifetime. Just how you mentioned how you ran into that wall meditating one time and it wasn't until 12 years you saw through it. That's 12 years of life. For some other people it's their entire lives except for the last few months of their life if they are terminally ill. I feel bad most for those who die instantaneously in an accident because they don't have the opportunity to really face that wall like someone would whose dying from cancer and knows they have months left. When a doctor tells you that you have months left, I feel like that's a very powerful incentive to drop the ego. But in the case of my wife's aunt who died from cancer, she suffered 100x more when she found out she had months left. My wife told me how she was angry with god the whole time because she believed it was too early to go when she had a family, etc. I'm only 27, so I guess the only thing I have to fall back on is being fortunate enough to be this young. I have only 20 or so years of conditioning to see through as opposed to 60. Because imagine seeing through the illusion at 80 years old. That would be one hell of a bittersweet experience because on one hand you finally see ahhh I'm free and on another hand you realize I have wasted 80 years. For 80 years I have unnecessarily suffered. Some people might say well that suffering lead to that awakening but awakening itself is seeing that suffering is unnecessary. You suffer only to see that it was unnecessary. That is one hell of a cruel joke
I don't mean to sound harsh, but hashing over this kind of story telling can keep you trapped in thinking. On the relative level they have some merit, but ultimately they serve no purpose other than distracting one from the present moment by keeping you in thought-stream and mental feedback loops that keep the mind churning away. This moment is where reality exists, this moment is where life exists, this moment is where existence actually manifests. Everything else is a play in the mind that turns attention away from the reality of this very moment. The danger of repeated storytelling is that one can completely overlook the only thing that is actually real, the eternal now, where one's felt presence can be known/realized. Remember the stories and the lessons learned on the relative level of existence, but be wary of becoming trapped there. But the good news is this: It's always now. Now is where freedom is, where peace is.
Best way I can put awareness is it's a not knowing, knowing. You don't know anything, there is only knowing by itself.
You are spot on. Instead of calling it 'knowing by itself' I tend to refer to it as knowingness. It is knowingness without an object to be known. Another way it has been expressed is it is the 'light' of consciousness - not the kind of light that is seen by the eye, but the light that lets objects to be known. Without an object to be illuminated it is simply self-luminous. In other words, it knows itself - there is nothing external to it that illuminates it. The discovery of this pure knowingness is deeply satisfying because it puts an end to seeking.

You are having some very good insights and I look forward to others that you would care to share.

Here's an exercise I suggest that's just for your own benefit. If you choose to share with others later then that's up to you: Continue to write about what this sort of clarity is like after it has occurred. Obviously this will be based on memories of the experience, but the sooner you do this after having these glimpses the easier it will be. Reflect on the experience and then write about them with as much accuracy as you can. Take your time doing this. Write, pause and see if it feels right when you reread your words. Then rewrite and pause once more until it feels even more right when you reread. Keep doing this, continually fine tuning your words and phrases until it feels perfect. I have found this exercise an excellent way to actually bring back the experience further down the line when you reread them days, weeks, months and even years later. Reading your own writing is quite satisfying if it has been done well. In my case, I often will have long pauses until just the right word or phrase comes to mind, and there will be lots of editing until it feels complete and accurate. And the more effective you get at doing this others who read them will begin resonate with those words as well, drawing them deeper into their own sense of existence.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by turiya » Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:45 am

Beautiful posts, kiki :D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Being aware of being aware or resting as awareness?

Post by Nyseto » Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:58 pm

Had another insight. We think we have many choices but really we only have one: abide as awareness or suffer. Also when abiding as awareness, there is absolutely nothing. There are no concepts, there are no people, there is not even awareness in the conceptual sense. It's all just this. When awareness uses concepts or objects, it sees them as itself other than separate. If I grab a drink, it's awareness grabbing awareness, in fact there's only awareness or raw experience.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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