When thoughts come what should i do?

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waverider
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When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:27 pm

I am 40, male. I get negative thoughts of the past when i was bullied or i witnessed bullying. I get them very often. I feel j am being attacked, assaulted or taunted. I react to to them and cause suffering. How do i handle this? I have tried replacing the thoughts with presence but the thoughts return.

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:20 pm

waverider wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:27 pm
I am 40, male. I get negative thoughts of the past when i was bullied or i witnessed bullying. I get them very often. I feel j am being attacked, assaulted or taunted. I react to to them and cause suffering. How do i handle this? I have tried replacing the thoughts with presence but the thoughts return.
I suggest you look at those negative thoughts with indifference. These thoughts have a long history with you. Most all of us have, or have had, our own troublesome thoughts to deal with. Resisting such troubling thoughts only serves to energize them simply because your attention is focused on them. Indifference tends to let the energetic air out of them.

A thought arises, say... 'Oh you again. You're old news.' I've got better things to do. 'I've moved on.' And then move on to something you prefer. That can be presence, or return to whatever you were doing when the thought intruded into your moment. What you are doing is assigning a new meaning to these thoughts - one that says they no longer matter. Learn to believe it. Belief is power. Do this over and over, whenever such thoughts arise. There is nothing keeping them active but your own attention.

You may not be able to stop them immediately from coming to mind, but you can decide how to treat them. The more you treat them with indifference, the more their energy subsides. When you can truly laugh about it, you're free.

WW

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Yes, i make a resolution everyday that i will ignore these thoughts but end up responding to them. I have been getting these for the Last 3-4 years.

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Nyseto
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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Nyseto » Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm

waverider wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:44 pm
Yes, i make a resolution everyday that i will ignore these thoughts but end up responding to them. I have been getting these for the Last 3-4 years.
I've had the same issue. When you say you make a resolution everyday to ignore your thoughts but you end up responding to them anyway, your mind is just testing you. You're doing it right since you're causing your mind to attack you with those same thoughts but you're turning away out of fear at the last minute of letting those thoughts be because you think they will bring you death and rightfully so because when you "die", that is the same moment you accept things the way they are. All fear is the death of the ego. The thoughts themselves are not the problem, it's the fear of them when they come up. The more you try to change, ignore, or modify them, the more they keep coming back. You just have to instead allow them the space to be. I like what Eckhart says, "Ask yourself if you can live with this feeling forever." There is no other way around it, the only way is through.

Ignoring your thoughts is not the same as distracting yourself or running away from them. Even trying to welcome the thoughts as a means to get rid of them won't work. The welcoming has to be authentic and that welcoming is only found IN the death of the ego. You cannot welcome something with the ego. It's about shifting your attention from being aware of the thoughts to just being aware.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:49 am

Yes i fear annihilation. The past event when i could not stand-up to bullies repeat in my mind as thoughts in a loop inventing new scenarios. I try to get back at bullies which i could not in the past.

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:40 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm

The more you try to change, ignore, or modify them, the more they keep coming back. You just have to instead allow them the space to be. I like what Eckhart says, "Ask yourself if you can live with this feeling forever." There is no other way around it, the only way is through.
Can you please explain what you mean by giving space to the thoughts. "Can you live with this feeling" Living with this feeling is very disturbing. I am full of rage and anger when these thoughts come to me.

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Nyseto » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:07 pm

Living with the feeling means to allow it to be as it is. Your true nature is openness, nothing sticks to you. The rage and anger just want to be embraced, allowed. That's the only way they will go away although when you allow them, you do not allow them with the intention of making them go away. You are freedom itself so you have to start with BEING free. Take the screen onto which a movie appears. The screen is never affected by the movie regardless of what happens, yet the movie is made out of the screen. At the core of these feelings, only happiness is found. Tell these feelings, "You are free to stay as long as you wish. I will always be here. I will not try to change you or push you away. You are welcome." If new thoughts come up such as "If I allow these feelings to stay then I will go crazy, I will never be at ease", then that thought TOO is allowed and embraced. You are the space in which thoughts and emotions come and go. The more you recognize this space of awareness, these thoughts and feelings will gradually become permeated with the peace inherent in the space. Don't have any expectations regarding time in allowing these thoughts and feelings to stay or when they will go away. The whole point of awareness is to be outside of time, to be disconnected from past and future. Awareness is a universal "yes" to everything since awareness recognizes everything as itself. Once you are picking and choosing, you are simultaneously creating the separate self. Your mind has its likes and dislikes but you don't like or dislike any of these likes or dislikes. Any importance you give to a thought or feeling is agreeing with the mind on a subtle level. You already are this openness allowing everything to come and go, you just need to cease being something OTHER than this openness. Fear is the only thing keeping the ego in place. Awareness is love.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:29 am

Nyseto wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:07 pm
Living with the feeling means to allow it to be as it is. Your true nature is openness, nothing sticks to you. The rage and anger just want to be embraced, allowed. That's the only way they will go away although when you allow them, you do not allow them with the intention of making them go away. You are freedom itself so you have to start with BEING free. Take the screen onto which a movie appears. The screen is never affected by the movie regardless of what happens, yet the movie is made out of the screen. At the core of these feelings, only happiness is found. Tell these feelings, "You are free to stay as long as you wish. I will always be here. I will not try to change you or push you away. You are welcome." If new thoughts come up such as "If I allow these feelings to stay then I will go crazy, I will never be at ease", then that thought TOO is allowed and embraced. You are the space in which thoughts and emotions come and go. The more you recognize this space of awareness, these thoughts and feelings will gradually become permeated with the peace inherent in the space. Don't have any expectations regarding time in allowing these thoughts and feelings to stay or when they will go away. The whole point of awareness is to be outside of time, to be disconnected from past and future. Awareness is a universal "yes" to everything since awareness recognizes everything as itself. Once you are picking and choosing, you are simultaneously creating the separate self. Your mind has its likes and dislikes but you don't like or dislike any of these likes or dislikes. Any importance you give to a thought or feeling is agreeing with the mind on a subtle level. You already are this openness allowing everything to come and go, you just need to cease being something OTHER than this openness. Fear is the only thing keeping the ego in place. Awareness is love.
When you say 'allow the thoughts to be' do you mean i should indulge them. If i think those thoughts through i become upset and worn-out. Some say the moment you become aware of thoughts drop them.

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Nyseto » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:34 pm

waverider wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:29 am
Nyseto wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:07 pm
Living with the feeling means to allow it to be as it is. Your true nature is openness, nothing sticks to you. The rage and anger just want to be embraced, allowed. That's the only way they will go away although when you allow them, you do not allow them with the intention of making them go away. You are freedom itself so you have to start with BEING free. Take the screen onto which a movie appears. The screen is never affected by the movie regardless of what happens, yet the movie is made out of the screen. At the core of these feelings, only happiness is found. Tell these feelings, "You are free to stay as long as you wish. I will always be here. I will not try to change you or push you away. You are welcome." If new thoughts come up such as "If I allow these feelings to stay then I will go crazy, I will never be at ease", then that thought TOO is allowed and embraced. You are the space in which thoughts and emotions come and go. The more you recognize this space of awareness, these thoughts and feelings will gradually become permeated with the peace inherent in the space. Don't have any expectations regarding time in allowing these thoughts and feelings to stay or when they will go away. The whole point of awareness is to be outside of time, to be disconnected from past and future. Awareness is a universal "yes" to everything since awareness recognizes everything as itself. Once you are picking and choosing, you are simultaneously creating the separate self. Your mind has its likes and dislikes but you don't like or dislike any of these likes or dislikes. Any importance you give to a thought or feeling is agreeing with the mind on a subtle level. You already are this openness allowing everything to come and go, you just need to cease being something OTHER than this openness. Fear is the only thing keeping the ego in place. Awareness is love.
When you say 'allow the thoughts to be' do you mean i should indulge them. If i think those thoughts through i become upset and worn-out. Some say the moment you become aware of thoughts drop them.
No, you are mistaking indulging with welcoming. When I say to allow the thoughts to be, I am saying to accept their presence because they are ultimately made of presence. You welcome the thoughts by accepting that they are there without falling into the habit of following them and engaging them. You welcome them as you welcome birds chirping in the background. In fact, you don't even try to welcome them, they are already welcomed before you even engage them. And when they say the moment you become aware of thoughts to drop them, what they really mean is to drop the effort engaging those thoughts. To drop a thought reinforces that you are a "me" dropping a thought. Thoughts drop of their own accord, you are just a witness. Trying to still the mind with the mind is still being trapped in mind. You are still identifying with the mind. It's about letting everything be as it is, completely. It doesn't mean being passive, it's just an acceptance of this moment. Remain as the not knowing of anything. It's not a demand, it's an invitation. You just remain aware of being aware and those thoughts will no longer appear as objects far from you, creating the sense of separation of subject+object. They come to you, you don't go after them.

You cannot find happiness as a personal entity. Once happiness is found, there is only happiness. As a kid you never claimed that you were happy, you just were happy. We are accustomed to efforting so ceasing psychological efforts feels like an effort in itself but really it's the opposite. There is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by turiya » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:55 pm

Nice posts, Nyseto! :D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

waverider
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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by waverider » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:50 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:34 pm


No, you are mistaking indulging with welcoming. When I say to allow the thoughts to be, I am saying to accept their presence because they are ultimately made of presence. You welcome the thoughts by accepting that they are there without falling into the habit of following them and engaging them. You welcome them as you welcome birds chirping in the background. In fact, you don't even try to welcome them, they are already welcomed before you even engage them. And when they say the moment you become aware of thoughts to drop them, what they really mean is to drop the effort engaging those thoughts. To drop a thought reinforces that you are a "me" dropping a thought. Thoughts drop of their own accord, you are just a witness. Trying to still the mind with the mind is still being trapped in mind. You are still identifying with the mind. It's about letting everything be as it is, completely. It doesn't mean being passive, it's just an acceptance of this moment. Remain as the not knowing of anything. It's not a demand, it's an invitation. You just remain aware of being aware and those thoughts will no longer appear as objects far from you, creating the sense of separation of subject+object. They come to you, you don't go after them.

You cannot find happiness as a personal entity. Once happiness is found, there is only happiness. As a kid you never claimed that you were happy, you just were happy. We are accustomed to efforting so ceasing psychological efforts feels like an effort in itself but really it's the opposite. There is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.
This part is what is most confusing.

I think thoughts when i am unaware. The moment i catch myself thinking i become aware. When i am aware I don't think unwanted thoughts. So how can I be aware and "witness thoughts" at the same time? They say "let the thought pass through like a cloud in the sky. Witness but don't judge". How is that possible? The moment you witness (become aware) thought ceases to exist. Awareness/presense abruptly aborts the thought. Is this not true? Controller is the controlled...

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Nyseto » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:47 am

waverider wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:50 pm
Nyseto wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:34 pm


No, you are mistaking indulging with welcoming. When I say to allow the thoughts to be, I am saying to accept their presence because they are ultimately made of presence. You welcome the thoughts by accepting that they are there without falling into the habit of following them and engaging them. You welcome them as you welcome birds chirping in the background. In fact, you don't even try to welcome them, they are already welcomed before you even engage them. And when they say the moment you become aware of thoughts to drop them, what they really mean is to drop the effort engaging those thoughts. To drop a thought reinforces that you are a "me" dropping a thought. Thoughts drop of their own accord, you are just a witness. Trying to still the mind with the mind is still being trapped in mind. You are still identifying with the mind. It's about letting everything be as it is, completely. It doesn't mean being passive, it's just an acceptance of this moment. Remain as the not knowing of anything. It's not a demand, it's an invitation. You just remain aware of being aware and those thoughts will no longer appear as objects far from you, creating the sense of separation of subject+object. They come to you, you don't go after them.

You cannot find happiness as a personal entity. Once happiness is found, there is only happiness. As a kid you never claimed that you were happy, you just were happy. We are accustomed to efforting so ceasing psychological efforts feels like an effort in itself but really it's the opposite. There is no way to happiness, happiness is the way.
This part is what is most confusing.

I think thoughts when i am unaware. The moment i catch myself thinking i become aware. When i am aware I don't think unwanted thoughts. So how can I be aware and "witness thoughts" at the same time? They say "let the thought pass through like a cloud in the sky. Witness but don't judge". How is that possible? The moment you witness (become aware) thought ceases to exist. Awareness/presense abruptly aborts the thought. Is this not true? Controller is the controlled...
When you are aware, thinking happens by itself without the "I" thought. Awareness is using thought since thought is an activity of awareness. I'll put it this way. When you're being aware, you're actually thinking. When you're lost in thought, you're not thinking at all, because -you- are lost in thought where -you- are searching for -yourself- IN thought although you are outside of thought. Objects come to awareness, awareness doesn't go after objects..it's a defocusing of attention. Thoughts are coming to you, but you don't grasp at them as a means to find yourself. Controller is the controlled means that thought is an activity of awareness, thought is made of awareness. However, awareness is beyond thought and thought derives it's seeming existence from awareness.

Awareness/presence doesn't abort thinking, it aborts the effort to TRY to think. Thinking just happens effortlessly without the "I" thought where awareness identifies with thought. You still have to solve problems and plan ahead, etc. etc. So awareness doesn't mean you're going into a vegetative state. Awareness is just taking the identication with thought away, but not thinking itself.

So, awareness does not equal no thought or a blank state of mind since thinking and a blank state of mind are both observed. Rather, awareness is the absence of identification with thought.

Ultimately, the only way to understand presence is by being present.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Urch » Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 pm

Nyseto, I experience the same thing. I only started listening to Eckhart, Osho, Mooji, Neville, Joseph murphy etc about 2-3years ago. I became so excited at first to be aware, manifest something in my life but my problem is when I get over that excitement, I fall back into my old negative mind pattern. I and my fiance whose also my friend and introduced me to conscious living want to be married. We have wanted to since 2018. However things dont just work out. His investments crashed in 2018 and in 2020. And in these times we had already planned the month we were going to get married but nothing came out of it. The thing is he is always so optimistic, and still stands firm that "he is already married to me, and he is conscious of being a millionaire who adds value to humanity". My problem is because these past attempts didn't work, I've been filled with so much fear for the future. I feel so unhappy not being married in my 30's and feel time is going. I keep wondering why it's like this for us. With his faith I wonder why things aren't working the way he believes it. To get married to him is the most important thing to me right now. I've been trying to change my negative mindset about our future together, I tend to succeed but once that negative mind pattern comes, I get lost and suffer so much. I start thinking I'm so old, thinking about how we would have been married if things had gone as planned, start getting anxious about what family and people might say about me not being married, I then begin to wish I were younger etc. I have never felt this negative about his until last year. I try to meditate to calm my mind but this doesn't work again, I can't stay still and I feel tightness and hotness around my back/spine, my heart rate escalates, I'm feeled with so much fear(start thinking what if I grow old and I and my fiance are still in this situation, what if our plans to get married never works out etc) which is very very unbearable. Is it my negative mindset that makes us not to have been married by now? Also, how about his unshakable faith that "it is done"? I remember when we planned for Nov this year(before his investments crashed due to the covid pandemic), I remember being so happy and confident like it had already happened. I then realized that I was confident because there was a "plan" made on how to actualize our wedding and all. Now that the plan didn't work out, I'm filled with fear and uncertainty all over again. It's so discomforting Nseto. I feel so afraid, my whole body contracts, heart beat so fast, my body feels so hot and tight. My fiance is so not afraid, so full of faith, so I wonder why things aren't appearing like he believes. I truly want to manifest the life I want but I seem to still be drawn back after a while back into this negativity and fear.

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Nyseto » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:56 am

Urch wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:48 pm
Nyseto, I experience the same thing. I only started listening to Eckhart, Osho, Mooji, Neville, Joseph murphy etc about 2-3years ago. I became so excited at first to be aware, manifest something in my life but my problem is when I get over that excitement, I fall back into my old negative mind pattern. I and my fiance whose also my friend and introduced me to conscious living want to be married. We have wanted to since 2018. However things dont just work out. His investments crashed in 2018 and in 2020. And in these times we had already planned the month we were going to get married but nothing came out of it. The thing is he is always so optimistic, and still stands firm that "he is already married to me, and he is conscious of being a millionaire who adds value to humanity". My problem is because these past attempts didn't work, I've been filled with so much fear for the future. I feel so unhappy not being married in my 30's and feel time is going. I keep wondering why it's like this for us. With his faith I wonder why things aren't working the way he believes it. To get married to him is the most important thing to me right now. I've been trying to change my negative mindset about our future together, I tend to succeed but once that negative mind pattern comes, I get lost and suffer so much. I start thinking I'm so old, thinking about how we would have been married if things had gone as planned, start getting anxious about what family and people might say about me not being married, I then begin to wish I were younger etc. I have never felt this negative about his until last year. I try to meditate to calm my mind but this doesn't work again, I can't stay still and I feel tightness and hotness around my back/spine, my heart rate escalates, I'm feeled with so much fear(start thinking what if I grow old and I and my fiance are still in this situation, what if our plans to get married never works out etc) which is very very unbearable. Is it my negative mindset that makes us not to have been married by now? Also, how about his unshakable faith that "it is done"? I remember when we planned for Nov this year(before his investments crashed due to the covid pandemic), I remember being so happy and confident like it had already happened. I then realized that I was confident because there was a "plan" made on how to actualize our wedding and all. Now that the plan didn't work out, I'm filled with fear and uncertainty all over again. It's so discomforting Nseto. I feel so afraid, my whole body contracts, heart beat so fast, my body feels so hot and tight. My fiance is so not afraid, so full of faith, so I wonder why things aren't appearing like he believes. I truly want to manifest the life I want but I seem to still be drawn back after a while back into this negativity and fear.
Don't take this as me writing off your entire story as unimportant. Your story is still going to be there and I have no answers to the details of your story like a therapist would because if i do that, it will only prolong your seeking by trying to figure things out. What I do want to do is to directly point you to something far deeper that doesn't involve any "figuring out" of anything. The separate self or mind, always has a story to go along with the suffering. So and so did this, this and that happened to me, etc. Give your attention to the space that this story is occurring in and allow that space to come to the foreground while the story just falls back. You are not changing or resisting any part of your story, instead you are becoming interested in something much deeper. Ask yourself, who is the "I" that all of this is happening to? Try to find it. Who is this "I" that is trying to meditate and stay still, is afraid, and seems to be drawn into this negativity? You're aware of all these things that your mind is churning out..but with what are you aware of all these things? Give your attention to that. Is THAT afraid and negative? Has that ever appeared or disappeared? Stay with just that sense that you simply are. You already are still and calm, that peace is always readily available. The movie has you so absorbed that you don't see the screen anymore but all there ever is, is the screen. Who is trying to meditate? Meditation is just an acceptance of everything as it already is, it's what you are.

Everything that you're aware of, cannot be you. You're aware of the fear and the idea that you have a negative mindset. So that can't be you. Those things only seem to have power over you because you're identifying with them. Don't identify with anything, let them be. Just you are, that's it. Rest as that, stay there, keep coming back there. That's all meditation is. Everything you can observe is not you. Let all these feelings and thoughts come rushing in, but you don't grab onto them. Do you have to sit cross legged to do this? Do you need to take time out of your day to do this? It's just a simple twist of your consciousness back to itself. It's nothing extraordinary but it's not ordinary either. This peace is beyond all understanding and words but it's undeniably present. Focus on that. Go beyond your mind without trying to go beyond it. You're searching for contentment when you are already THAT. Just remain unoccupied. Doing goes on and on, but you just watch. When you are watching, you are already being still. Where you go wrong is when you leave that stillness to entertain some thought or feeling. In fact, you never leave the stillness, you're just choosing to get involved. Just like you choose to get involved, choose to not get involved, and lovingly. It's not a pushing away, it's a letting go. That fear is the mind trying to make its way back to you because it doesn't want to disappear. It wants to continue its narrative to have your attention.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: When thoughts come what should i do?

Post by Urch » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:42 am

Nyseto, so much love to you. I'm so so thankful you took the time to write to me.

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