Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

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runstrails
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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by runstrails » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:34 pm

Waverider: Can anyone prove that consciousness is not the function/feature of the brain?
Sure! I'll try.

Lets assume that consciousness is a function of the brain. Although science struggles to explain consciousness (e.g., you can google the 'Hard Problem of Consciousness').

But what is the brain? atoms? molecules? sub-atomic nano particles? quantum particles? What does the body and brain resolve to ultimately? We've reached quantum particles---but more are being discovered. Higgs Boson? Ultimately, we can only say that the body/brain resolves to the fundamental 'existence'. And if you understand that existence and consciousness are not separate (see my post above), then you have to say that the brain resolves to consciousness.

That is, 'you' resolve to the fundamental existence/consciousness. So you can adopt your identity as the body/mind or the pure existence/consciousness you resolve to. It's just a paradigm shift for your primary identity that takes place in your intellect.

Hope this makes sense. I'm trying to condense all of Vedanta into a paragraph so it might appear cryptic to say the least :D.

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:11 pm

runstrails wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:07 pm
Waverider wrote: In order to prove that awareness exists you must begin your investigation with the assumption that it doesn't.
What you need to dwell on is that existence and awareness are one and the same. They are two sides of the same coin. Nothing can exist without an awareness of it, and conversely, if there is awareness, there has to be existence.
I agree. Awareness and existence coincide. If something exists it is known and vice versa. Consciousness exists and we are aware that it exists. But consciousness could just be a function of our body it does not have to be a magical entity infinite, timeless, invincible. Maybe consciousness flows through us just like blood flows through our body. Is blood infinite, timeless, invincible? It's not. An entity known as blood exists and it is known. It is produced by our body and it goes away with the body.

The non-dual philosophy argues that consciousness is the real I and it is infinite, timeless and invincible and it is outside of our body and it does not die with the body. But there is absolutely no proof of that.

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by runstrails » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:00 pm

waverider wrote: But consciousness could just be a function of our body
Then how do you explain the existence of all that is outside the scope of your mind/body?

The stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, the trees, the animals. They all exist and so there has to be an awareness which allows them to exist. There has to be an awareness which reveals their existence.

But your doubts are good ones and honest ones. In traditional Vedanta there is a stage called 'mananam' which is solely for clarifying doubts with a teacher. It can take years on your own. Vedanta encourages doubts and their resolution.

If you are interested in traditional Vedanta I can refer you to the website of a western teacher called James Swartz. He has many teachers on there that you can email communicate with for free and see if they can answer your doubts. But they use the traditional methodology so you have to be accepting of that.
https://www.shiningworld.com/

I'll be honest with you, for me the deepest answers to profound questions come from traditional Vedanta. Traditional Vedanta expects you to have questions and test the answers given from teachings against your own logic. And finally, there is no mystic or magical thinking in traditional Vedanta. I agree with you that none of this is mystical. It's the simplest, most obvious thing if you really think about it!

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:31 pm

runstrails wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:00 pm

The stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, the trees, the animals. They all exist and so there has to be an awareness which allows them to exist.
I don't understand what you mean by this.

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by turiya » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:51 pm

waverider wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:13 am
Can anyone prove that consciousness is not the function/feature of the brain?
No, but it is everyone's direct experience (if they really care to investigate and discover that it is in fact their direct experience) that the brain is a function/feature of Awareness/Consciousness, rather than the other way around.

(By the way: Can anyone prove that consciousness is a function/feature of the brain?... No. :wink: )

For anyone feeling adventurous, the Rupert Spira video I posted earlier provides an excellent, clear step-by-step investigation into our direct experience.

And, isn't our direct experience supposed to be the foundation of any scientific exploration?

Yet, as Rupert pointed out in the video I posted, our culture systematically ignores our direct experience... and, instead, it favors a belief system that we've created based solely on the appearance of things. :shock:
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by runstrails » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:16 am

waverider wrote: "The stars, the planets, the sun, the moon, the trees, the animals. They all exist and so there has to be an awareness which allows them to exist".

I don't understand what you mean by this.
I'll do my best to explain. The awareness that non-duality talks about is not the mental cognition of objects by humans. Awareness is simply the limitless field of existence in which all objects appear. One analogy is that it is like a 'light' that illumines all objects.

It has nothing to do with humans or the mind or the brain. Every object that exists in the universe is revealed by this awareness. Existence cannot occur without awareness.

Very hard to explain in words---but it's important to get this. Dwell on it for a bit.

Good stuff Turiya--as always :D.

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by turiya » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:41 am

Thanks, rt :D
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:11 pm

turiya wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:51 pm
This video explains everything. Rupert spira should learn from him. 😌
Https://youtu.be/EYmOECFQILE

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:23 pm

We are born in this world as mind and body. If we neglect our mind and body under the pretext of some magical real 'I' then we are just fooling ourselves. The famous quote from the movie The Departed spoken by captain queenen (played by Martin sheen) comes to mind "We deal in deception here what we do not deal with is Self- deception."

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:25 pm

turiya wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:51 pm
waverider wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:13 am
Can anyone prove that consciousness is not the function/feature of the brain?
No, but it is everyone's direct experience (if they really care to investigate and discover that it is in fact their direct experience) that the brain is a function/feature of Awareness/Consciousness, rather than the other way around.

(By the way: Can anyone prove that consciousness is a function/feature of the brain?... No. :wink: )

For anyone feeling adventurous, the Rupert Spira video I posted earlier provides an excellent, clear step-by-step investigation into our direct experience.

And, isn't our direct experience supposed to be the foundation of any scientific exploration?

Yet, as Rupert pointed out in the video I posted, our culture systematically ignores our direct experience... and, instead, it favors a belief system that we've created based solely on the appearance of things. :shock:

I have seen rupert's video. He says we can experience conciousness to be infinite and timeless. What he calls experience is just our mind playing a trick on us. He heard his guru say that conciousness was infinite and timeless and then when he investigated this using his own mind he got the same answer. It's like noise with subtitles and our mind believes that to be true whereas it could be just some noise or something completely different. I saw a video by the paranormal guy who was doing seance for a departed soul. He said the spirit was speaking to him through a radio like device. He was using subtitle in the video to deceive the viewers. You could use any words in the subtitle and viewers mind would think it is what is being said.

Honestly when you enquire the nature of awareness does it tell you that it is always happy, infinite and timeless? Or is it something you heard from gurus abd now believe it to be true. Do you remember the time you were in your mother's womb?

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by turiya » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm

waverider wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:11 pm
This video explains everything. Rupert spira should learn from him. 😌
Https://youtu.be/EYmOECFQILE
:lol:
waverider wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:23 pm
If we neglect our mind and body under the pretext of some magical real 'I' then we are just fooling ourselves.
Agree with you on that one. :wink: We definitely shouldn't neglect our mind and body (we should merely see it and honor it for what it really is).
waverider wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:25 pm
Honestly when you enquire the nature of awareness does it tell you that it is always happy, infinite and timeless?
I wouldn't say it is "always happy." Rather, I'd use the words "deeply peaceful." (A Peace that doesn't rely on conditions.)

My answer is "yes" to infinite and timeless, though. :D

Honestly when you inquire into the nature of awareness do you find that it is finite and time-bound? Or is that something you were brought up to believe in?
“We ourselves are not an illusory part of Reality; rather are we Reality itself illusorily conceived.” - Wei Wu Wei

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by Nyseto » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:08 am

I haven't thoroughly read every post here so I'm going to just jump in.

I have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you aware?
&
This one you don't have to answer.
2. Where do you go to answer the first question?

Realizing that awareness is timeless and always peaceful is reached by going there...through seeing that you already are there. It's not enough to intellectually know or even believe what someone says about awareness. Those two questions I asked you are for you to actually go there and see for yourself.

I can write a book about what sugar tastes like..but until you actually taste it, you will never know.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:59 am

Just something to consider when pondering whether consciousness is a function of the brain: There are a whole lot of people who have been certified clinically dead yet found themselves more conscious because of it, not less. Most of those no longer fear death as they have become familiar with the experience and know they live on. It is quite common that they are distressed because they had to come back.

There are no scientific instruments that exist that can measure consciousness beyond the brain. They can barely measure it in the brain, and then only as it relates to certain brain activity. Radio signals can be measured in the radio's mechanisms. That does not mean it is their origin or that the radio produces them. Someone who knew nothing of radio waves, or did not believe they exist outside the radio, might think so, however, and could make a good case by damaging some of its parts as evidence that the resulting failure of the sound proves it was produced there.

Of course a view of the larger reality would suggest otherwise.

WW

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by waverider » Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:20 pm

Nyseto wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:08 am
I haven't thoroughly read every post here so I'm going to just jump in.

I have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you aware?
&
This one you don't have to answer.
2. Where do you go to answer the first question?

Realizing that awareness is timeless and always peaceful is reached by going there...through seeing that you already are there. It's not enough to intellectually know or even believe what someone says about awareness. Those two questions I asked you are for you to actually go there and see for yourself.

I can write a book about what sugar tastes like..but until you actually taste it, you will never know.
When i ask myself "Am I aware?"
I investigate. I check if I am able to see and what I am seeing is registered in my mind. Then i Check if i am hearing the sound of the AC or fan and the background noise. Then i check if i am able to feel the sensation of my body pressing down on the chair, my back resting on the backrest, my head pushing on the headrest. When i investigate all these aspects i come with the answer 'YES, I AM AWARE".

Where do i go to get the answer?
To my body and my mind.

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Re: Who am i? Why can't i be a ever changing entity?

Post by Nyseto » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:12 pm

waverider wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:20 pm
Nyseto wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:08 am
I haven't thoroughly read every post here so I'm going to just jump in.

I have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you aware?
&
This one you don't have to answer.
2. Where do you go to answer the first question?

Realizing that awareness is timeless and always peaceful is reached by going there...through seeing that you already are there. It's not enough to intellectually know or even believe what someone says about awareness. Those two questions I asked you are for you to actually go there and see for yourself.

I can write a book about what sugar tastes like..but until you actually taste it, you will never know.
When i ask myself "Am I aware?"
I investigate. I check if I am able to see and what I am seeing is registered in my mind. Then i Check if i am hearing the sound of the AC or fan and the background noise. Then i check if i am able to feel the sensation of my body pressing down on the chair, my back resting on the backrest, my head pushing on the headrest. When i investigate all these aspects i come with the answer 'YES, I AM AWARE".

Where do i go to get the answer?
To my body and my mind.
The body and mind are within awareness and made of awareness. No one has ever been able to find matter, a body, a mind, or a world. Only awareness knows awareness, the body and mind don't know anything because they are appearances. Even though you are aware of all those things that you mentioned, you had to have gone to the experience of being aware all by itself by recognizing the isness of things. You did not have to think about whether you're aware or not meaning you had to have gone to the heart of raw experience itself. Now, have you ever not been aware?

When you describe the time and place of awareness, you would refer to it as "here and now". "Here" is dimensionless, "now" is timeless. It doesn't mean time without an end, it means beyond time altogether. You are life itself. Awareness is infinite not because it's unknown, but because it's unknowable meaning that it can't even be looked at with the mind because the very act of trying to look at it is going further from it into ignorance. The unknown becomes known sooner or later but the unknowable remains timeless. The unknowable is closer than close, it is you. It is through the grace of the unknowable that you are even on these forums asking about this.
"There is no such thing as enlightenment. The appreciation of this fact is itself enlightenment." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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