Peace and Good Will Between Neighbours. How To?

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Postby quitesane » Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:51 pm

"No change is ever truly successful on the level of mind and action."

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Postby summer » Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:10 am

Then, may I ask, on what level is change successful?
A shift in our consciousness from who we think we are, to who we truly are?
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Postby JD » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:39 am

Clare wrote:To me, your response points out some of the pitfalls of Eckharts perfectly honed theory. We are human beings; not automatons...

With respect, Clare, the whole point of Tolle's teaching is his insistence on the exact opposite of your assertion, i.e. that most of us are indeed automata - robots in the grip of conditioned mind and mechanical thought.
and I cannot fully understand any system that would say have no expectations at all - not even for peace and a distant friendliness between neighbours?

I agreee that this may seem strange at first, but when you think about it, what useful purpose can be served by such expectations?

The simple fact is that your neighbours are either friendly or they're not. If they are, then so much the better. If they're not, then that's also okay - unless your expectations demand otherwise of them and you construct a lengthy narrative around their uncommunicativeness in which you are "the rejected" and they are "the uneighbourly neighbours".

This seems to be what you've done and the only result that I can see is that your story has made you unhappy. This is Tolle's point: It's all useless mental activity that causes nothing but suffering.

Well, perhaps then we should not expect peace at all, nor kindness, nor compassion?


That's exactly right. If you receive those things, it's good. If you don't, that's also good if you have no expectations in the first place. What can expectations bring you except suffering and sorrow if they're not met?

Perhaps we should be okay about children being beaten? It IS, just ACCEPT it ??


Well, in your first post you actually wrote:

I have no idea, and whilst I would hate to think of any child being abused, I also understand this is a very heavy accusation against anyone; Iwould not want to do it unless I was sure.


If circumstances have changed and you now have evidence that the children are being abused or strong grounds for suspecting that they are, then of course it's your duty to alert the relevant authorities.

If I understand Tolle correctly, when he advises us to accept, "what IS", he's referring to inner surrender and certainly not suggesting that we should never try to change anything.

An example he often gives is what he calls the "cold soup" situation. You're in a restaurant and the soup you're served is cold. Should you accept the cold soup just because it IS? Of course not! You simply ask the waiter if he'd mind having it heated up. If it then turns out that oven has stopped working, that's the time to practice surrender. :D

What you don't do is create a mental drama around the simple fact that your soup was cold:

"Can you believe that? They served me a plate of cold soup. Me! The same thing happened to me in a restaurant in Kansas last year. I thought the waiter gave me a funny look when we came in here. I bet he did it on purpose to show that he thinks he's too good to wait on me! I'm going to call the manager over and have this out with him!

And so on.

You ask for the soup to be heated up. You report the woman if you have evidence for reasonable suspicion.

There has to be a STANDARD I think. that even if we miss the mark, we try to live up to, and expect others to. Why would we have laws if this were not the case?


Actually, as Schopenhauer long ago observed, we have laws precisely because this is not the case - to force people to do what any civilised beings would do without having to be coerced by legal threats.

So...I have no idea what to do still. But I wil work on it with the angels. But if I see her hit those children any more severly than I saw yesterday, or I hear them scream any more than I do already, I don't think me writing a poem to make myself feel better about it, or just accepting what IS will be quite sufficient.


Tolle has a very simple method for deciding if you're faced with a real "challenge", i.e., a situation in the present moment that requires an immediate response, or merely a "problem" - a mind-based projection like: "if I see her hit those children any more severly than I saw yesterday", or "If I hear them scream any more than I do already...".

You're not helping the children or yourself with all this speculative mental activity.

It all comes down to this: report the mother when and if you have the evidence and meanwhile forget about it and stop tormenting yourself with negative trains of thought.

And remember this: The mother sounds very unconscious from your description, so she's hardly likely to make an ideal neighbour or friend. Give up any expectations in this direction and you'll be a lot happier. Most importantly of all, don't make it so personal. You can never know why she's unfriendly to you, any more than you can know why you were served cold soup.

Best accept it and move on. :)

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Postby ECM » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:26 pm

Clare,
So you work out of your home when you are not on the road?

I know exactly what you are saying in terms of wanting a "sense of community" with our neighbors!
For one - that makes you feel safer if you know them and two it can make things helpful if you run into a crutch and need a neighbors help.

I have one neighbor I loath (I have come to accept this) and the more I come to accept my loathing of her the more I can feel the emotions of that loathing subside in myself - almost melt away. Where as before- I was plotting (kind of like what Heidi was talking about) something against her- BUT now, with the NOW ;) there is no plotting against her - there is just this feeling towards her that I have come to fully accept.

Your situation sounds difficult.
Have you thought about moving? ( I know that sounds like worming your way out of the situation but it could be part of your planning)

Also-
I find compassion has worked for me a lot in this un-neighborly situation that I have. I found out that the woman'slife long partner just died about 2 years ago and perhaps she is dealing with that. Perhaps this woman gets NO help at home from her husband with the kids...I know there's be no smiling for me in that situation ;)

Cheers,
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Postby ECM » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:34 pm

JD -
I enjoyed your feedback.
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Postby Clare » Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:22 pm

Hi ECM,

Thanks for the suggestion of moving. I actually would love to move, and moving has become a sort of symbolism for movement, or lack of, in my own life. So, yes, I am looking into this.

I am looking at the whole thing as a symbolic representation of my life. I was reminded recently that nothing, absolutely nothing, is an accident.

The children calmed down a lot after I did the angelic work. She even smiled at me a couple of times. Plus the kids started to call "hello hello!" frantically in the garden every time I went out there. When I try to talk to them they do not speak English, and I spend a lot of time smiling and nodding, feeling foolish, so instead I communicate with bugs - Taking down ladybugs and green beetles and showing them to them; how the green bug diguises itself on a leaf. etc. They shriek and think this is immense fun. They are not used to being shown things and someone taking the time to do so, I feel. I do find myself saying to them repeatedly, "this will not hurt you": the beetle, the ladybug, my dog....Which again, I sense is very telling.

I absolutely have no investment on being 'safe' with them, I have to say. I just want peace at my own back door, that's all. Maybe the safety extends to world safety, that could be true. . But symbolically the world is not at peace. These people have come from a place of unrest. It may be no coincidence that they arrived next door to a healer. It's just the healer doesn't want to go to work! :lol:

JD, my goodness, you really have projected a lot onto what I have said. It really astonishes me how even when quoted word for word, people still make it something that doesn't sound like what I mean at all. And it's all okay. I may well have done the same with your post. I thank you for replying, and trust you meant no offence. Please trust that neither do I. I will say though that I have a tendency to be a little more forgiving of my humanness than you are. :)
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Postby JD » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:20 pm

Clare wrote:I thank you for replying, and trust you meant no offence. Please trust that neither do I. I will say though that I have a tendency to be a little more forgiving of my humanness than you are. :)

Indeed, I meant no offence, Clare, and I'm very sorry if I caused any. :)

My own life has been changed beyond all recognition by contact with Tolle's teachings, but I can see that they may be a little radical for some.

I believe that what I wrote was true to the spirit of his teachings which is one of compassion, rather than sentimentality, as he wishes to effect a real transformation in people's lives.

I'm extremely forgiving of my humanness because I see it for what it is - conditioned mind. You still have expectations of conditioned mind - your own and other people's - and I think that's where we differ.

Still, I wish you all the best and hope that you resolve these distressing problems with your neighbour. :)

@ ECM: Thank you. :)
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Postby Clare » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:29 am

JD wrote:
My own life has been changed beyond all recognition by contact with Tolle's teachings, but I can see that they may be a little radical for some.

You still have expectations of conditioned mind - your own and other people's - and I think that's where we differ.

Still, I wish you all the best and hope that you resolve these distressing problems with your neighbour. :)

@ ECM: Thank you. :)


JD
Yes, I am sure you are far more enlightened than I am. Thank you for enlightening me. And yes, i am glad to say, the issues I have with the neighbour are resolving nicely, as I have detailed in my last two posts.
:)

OH, and as an edit - you 'think' that's where we differ? Hmmm. :wink: :P
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Postby barbarasher » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:24 am

JD,

I found you post very very helpful, and a great practical summary of how PON suggests handling things.

I appreciate you taking the time to do it and look forward to your input. I request and encourage you to react in the same manner to any of the numerous issues that I have brought up on this site over time. Please, I would like to hear your response.

Even though I read the PON material and listen to audio version of it often and repeatedly, I find that a "live" (or as much as this written internet technology provides) interaction adds another dimension to the teaching.

I relate to your suggests in general, since they provide a general answer to so many issues that bother me/us. Even though the actual situation that you responded to is not relevant for me.


HOW TO: Acceptance / Perspective

The simple fact is that your neighbors are either friendly or they're not. If they are, then so much the better. If they're not, then that's also okay…
That's exactly right. If you receive those things, it's good. If you don't, that's also good if you have no expectations in the first place. What can expectations bring you except suffering and sorrow if they're not met?




HOW TO: When to Take Action:

"cold soup" situation.




HOW TO: Do it or Don't, but eliminate suffering

It all comes down to this: report the mother when and if you have the evidence and meanwhile forget about it and stop tormenting yourself with negative trains of thought.


Thank you
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Postby JD » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:27 pm

Clare wrote:OH, and as an edit - you 'think' that's where we differ? Hmmm. :wink: :P

Thinking is fine when it's employed with discipline for a specific purpose. Tolle never suggests otherwise.

It's when your thoughts think you that difficulties and dramas arise. :D
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Postby JD » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:55 pm

barbarasher wrote:JD,

I found you post very very helpful, and a great practical summary of how PON suggests handling things.

I appreciate you taking the time to do it and look forward to your input. I request and encourage you to react in the same manner to any of the numerous issues that I have brought up on this site over time. Please, I would like to hear your response.


Thanks for the kind words. :)

I certainly don't consider myself a Tolle expert, so your request (assuming that it wasn't ironic :D ) would be better addressed to the many knowledgeable members whose posts I've enjoyed reading here.

Still, If you have any issues that I've had personal experience of (as was the case with Clare's neighbour problem, which was why I chimed in), I'm happy to share my experiences of applying Tolle's radical solutions to practical difficulties.

Although I have a memory like a sieve, I've done little apart from listen to Tolle's CDs for the past few weeks, so although I may not know much I can at least parrot the Master fairly convincingly. :D
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Postby barbarasher » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:47 am

I thought your words showed understanding. Also, the fact that you can apply the concepts so relevantly will make your posts most welcome.
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