House of cards

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din
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House of cards

Post by din » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:20 pm

A House of Cards

Q: Almost all of the time, this idea [that I am this person] is ABSOLUTELY believed in. There are moments, however, when that idea falls away, maybe not completely, more like it becomes diminished, and it is seen that there is just this space where things are happening and appearing…including this idea that “I” am a “me.” Also, the recognition occurs that trying to “see” this, is itself the “problem,” since that becomes the very creation of the me.
…There is this wish that I could tell you that after reading your essay all is clear and no doubts remain.

A: Well, of course. It’s nice to “fantasize” about a future where no doubts remain. But just don’t worry about that for now. The doubts will clear up on their own, as the momentum of the understanding of “who you are” picks up speed. And that will happen on its own, as the belief in the “me” weakens. And that weakening will also happen on its own, and in its own time. You don’t have to do anything.

“Me” is a house of cards. It’s an idea that created itself, and now believes in itself. It never existed in the first place. And now that one card has been pulled out, the house of cards will simply begin to fall down on its own. You don’t have to do anything, not that you could anyway. You will be out experiencing your life every day, and these experiences will have a different spin once the “me” has been brought into question. And you will see that this creates a wobbly structure that becomes more and more wobbly until it collapses. But you really can’t do anything to rush this, or to make it happen, so you can relax. It simply will happen. The belief in the “me,” once questioned, cannot stand on its own.

It is not a “seeing” that the “me” is a house of cards that causes it to collapse. It is the fact that it is a house of cards that causes it to collapse. So there is nothing you have to know or remember or think or do. Go out there and live your life normally, and observe the changes. You’ll see things differently. The old insistence on things being your way, and getting your needs met, and needing to control the whole thing, will start to look a bit silly. And little by little, the whole apparatus will come apart at the seams. It has to. It can’t sustain the big lie once the inquiry has begun.

http://www.whatneverchanges.com/writings/d020807.html
:)

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din
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Post by din » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:35 pm

The last time I meditated was about 2 years ago.

On that day, at the end of the meditation, I realized I was just an idea.

I was not able to meditate after that.

I realize now why that was.

Because the very search for the truth of my being through the practice of meditation was reinforcing the idea that there was a separate "me" that needed to find something.

It's amazing how hindsight is 20/20, how clarity replaces confusion.

This is an amazing "story" I'm living! :lol:
:)

weichen
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meditate to "pure awareness"

Post by weichen » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:54 pm

Din wrote:Because the very search for the truth of my being through the practice of meditation was reinforcing the idea that there was a separate "me" that needed to find something.

Hi, Din,

There are many different ways of meditation. One of the meditation I do is close my eyes in relaxed body posture. Be highly alert but pay attention to nothing (no attention to breathing etc).

The normal moment to moment living is like awareness slip into my shoes. When I am compassionate toward another person, some awareness slip into that person's shoes. When I meditate (in the above described way), awareness withdraw from all shoes, and it is pure awareness, who I am. (I am not searching, or reinforcing anything at all)



As a side note, when my shoes broke (my little me die), who I really am (pure awareness) may find a new pair of shoes immediately, or stay as pure awareness. That side note can be called "mind activity, searching for truth, and is probably reinforcable. But when I meditate, that side note is also gone :)

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Post by kiki » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:04 pm

din wrote:Because the very search for the truth of my being through the practice of meditation was reinforcing the idea that there was a separate "me" that needed to find something.
Yes .... but when you tell this to people who meditate for the purpose of awakening there usually is resistance. Like awakening itself, the realization of your statement has to be discovered for oneself. Once it is seen to be true it becomes quite obvious. Not many meditators want to hear that though.

But don't get me wrong; if one wishes to meditate there is nothing wrong with that. But the most important point in meditation is when the technique is released and there is simply resting in awareness, allowing everything to be as it is. At that moment one is available to meet one's true nature "face to no-face".

A regular formal meditation practice does have benefits which are useful. It is a great way to reduce stress and to lower blood pressure - very healthy.

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Post by din » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:26 pm

Hi Kiki,
But the most important point in meditation is when the technique is released and there is simply resting in awareness, allowing everything to be as it is. At that moment one is available to meet one's true nature "face to no-face".

A regular formal meditation practice does have benefits which are useful. It is a great way to reduce stress and to lower blood pressure - very healthy.
I think "intent" is important.

I meditated to find the truth of my being.

Not just to relax, to be.

That's why it needed to be let go, because it was the mechanism by which the separate "me" needed to achieve something.

And therefore it was only reinforcing the separate "me".

I'll never forget that day.

I was so "lost" after that meditation.

And in the days after that, I didn't know what to do with myself, I was so attached to meditation, to the search.
:)

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din
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Post by din » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:35 pm

Hi weichen,

The normal moment to moment living is like awareness slip into my shoes. When I am compassionate toward another person, some awareness slip into that person's shoes. When I meditate (in the above described way), awareness withdraw from all shoes, and it is pure awareness, who I am. (I am not searching, or reinforcing anything at all)
Sounds good to me!

But be careful, you woundn't want to become attached this experience of pure awareness. :D
:)

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Post by kiki » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

din wrote:I think "intent" is important.

I meditated to find the truth of my being.

Not just to relax, to be.
Me too - I meditated in order to become "enlightened" - it didn't work. ET's influence here was profound and I dropped a 27 year practice. That was when everything "clicked" and I could understand what Krishnamurti, Osho, and others were writing about because the direct experience of what they were saying was now what was happening. I could see how "the little me" was kept in place by my efforts, could see the ego arise and fade away again yet my real nature was still fully present. Suddenly the search became meaningless and useless in terms of waking up. That was a huge relief.

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Post by din » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:04 pm

Suddenly the search became meaningless and useless in terms of waking up. That was a huge relief.
For me, giving up the search was important but not as important as letting go of the thoughts that were torturing me.

As a matter of fact, that's why I took up the search, there didn't seem to be anything left in life that was worthwhile.

There were constant thoughts of getting older, of going downhill, of having nothing to look forward to in the future, and there were accompanying feelings of hopelessness and helplessness.

There were thoughts of not really having made anything of myself, of being a failure.

Worrisome thoughts of declining health in old age, etc....

Thank god that's all gone!!!

That sense of self was nothing but one big contraction, one big problem! :cry:
:)

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Post by din » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:29 am

Also, the recognition occurs that trying to “see” this, is itself the “problem,” since that becomes the very creation of the me.
There's the crux of the matter.

This post comes from the "little me".

I just want to tell you that I will never get this.

Because I realize I'm incapable of "getting this".

Because I'm the contraction, and the contraction can't be the expansiveness.

"Getting this" means my death.

At least it means the death of my belief in myself as a separate entity that needs to get something.

There's no hope for me in this thread.
:)

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Post by kiki » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:32 am

din wrote:There's no hope for me in this thread.
Let the damn thing die then. There's no hope for "me" in any thread.

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Post by phil » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:59 am

Hey Kiki,
kiki wrote:Me too - I meditated in order to become "enlightened" - it didn't work. ET's influence here was profound and I dropped a 27 year practice. That was when everything "clicked" and I could understand what Krishnamurti, Osho, and others were writing about because the direct experience of what they were saying was now what was happening. I could see how "the little me" was kept in place by my efforts, could see the ego arise and fade away again yet my real nature was still fully present. Suddenly the search became meaningless and useless in terms of waking up. That was a huge relief.
Can we really separate a 27 year practice from what followed it? Is it possible that this training was helpful in bringing you to a place where you could hear Tolle?

Suppose you'd played poker, drank whisky and chased women for 27 years, and then one day somebody handed you a Tolle book. Same result?

I hear what you're saying about all effort reinforcing "me". And I do get that all the teachers are making a sincere attempt to get to the heart of the matter, and pull the plug on the whole me operation.

The problem I see is that this is simply too radical an approach for the overwhelming majority of people it is suggested to.

It's like the child Mozart trying to teach his six year old friends how to write symphonies like he does. Just not going to happen.

This forum seems ample evidence that all this talk of enlightenment and radical transformations that may (but probably not) happen someday tends to distract folks from very simple things like sitting meditation they could be doing RIGHT NOW to address what is happening right now.

We wave the promise of a permanent solution around and hype it up with lots of glamorous language, and send readers off on a big future trip. A few of us like Kiki may finally find the end of this rainbow.

Many more of us will experience this future trip as just one more disappointment, and then will be right back where we already are now.

Thoughts, colliding in our minds.

Very simple techniques already address these collisions, right now.

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Post by kiki » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:00 am

All quotes from Phil:
Can we really separate a 27 year practice from what followed it? Is it possible that this training was helpful in bringing you to a place where you could hear Tolle?
Yup - it's possible. I was at a point where I had tried virtually everything I came across and was ready to simply give up, but didn't want to "waste" 27 years worth of practice by stopping. Even with PON I continued to meditate for a short time, but it wasn't more than a few weeks that it became pointless - I realized what he was pointing to really was right here right now, so the meditation practice dropped.
Suppose you'd played poker, drank whisky and chased women for 27 years, and then one day somebody handed you a Tolle book. Same result?
Sure, why not? I've read about people like that. That sort of life is their practice until they're ripe for releasing it.
The problem I see is that this is simply too radical an approach for the overwhelming majority of people it is suggested to.
And because it's too radical they will in all liklihood continue with what they are doing until they let go of that. Then when awakening happens they'll see the truth of what "not doing anything" means.
This forum seems ample evidence that all this talk of enlightenment and radical transformations that may (but probably not) happen someday tends to distract folks from very simple things like sitting meditation they could be doing RIGHT NOW to address what is happening right now.
Well, they can continue to meditate if they want. When awakening happens it will be seen that it happens when the technique drops - when the "me" has nothing at all to do it tends to disappear. Let go of the need to practice, let that need go unfulfilled, unchased, and the "me" is deprived of the energy to keep it active. This is a very importanct thing because most people are very subtly invested in keeping the technique going, thus ensuring egoic entanglement. Most people aren't willing to find out what happens when there is a complete letting go because "where then would I be?" This fear-based mechanism ensures egoic identification.
We wave the promise of a permanent solution around and hype it up with lots of glamorous language, and send readers off on a big future trip.
I like what din once said, something like awakening is about as glamorous as a baloney sandwich because it's true. Only to the ego does it sound glamorous. It's really very ordinary, very simple. Only the mind makes it complicated and egos latch onto glamorous language. The reality of it is stunning in a certain sense, in a relative sense, yet very ordinary in the actuality of it.
Many more of us will experience this future trip as just one more disappointment, and then will be right back where we already are now.
Maybe what is really sought then is not awakening, but remaining disappointed. When disappointment has served its purpose awakening will follow. Besides, where are you right now? Aren't YOU always here right now anyway? Clinging to notions that there is somewhere to get to keeps one continuing on some sort of search - that's what ego's have, notions that there is somewhere to go which will take time.
Very simple techniques already address these collisions, right now.
Then use them - the simpler the better. Logically, the very simplist techniqe is none whatsoever. This sort of "non-technique" is not just sitting on your butt doing nothing, but actually seeing in the moment when doing of every sort arises and how it is sustained. In the moment of recognition of doing there is the opportunity to simply let the doing dissolve back into pure consciousness. Letting the doing dissolve back into consciousness is the same as letting the idea of the ego dissolve back into consciousness. That's all ego is, an idea. Like every idea it can be recognized as such and allowed to dissolve by not doing anything to hang on to it.

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Post by phil » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:44 am

Thanks for the conversation Kiki, I always enjoy the dialogue.
kiki wrote:Then use them - the simpler the better. Logically, the very simplist techniqe is none whatsoever.
Logically, yes. Practically, no.

Let's address a room full of people off the street who are suffering from thought overload, and tell them there is nothing they need to do to solve their problem.

How many listeners will find this non-technique approach to be simple, or effective?

How many _here_ find it effective?

Why are we still here then??

Why aren't we all merrily on our way to something else?
kiki wrote:This sort of "non-technique" is not just sitting on your butt doing nothing, but actually seeing in the moment when doing of every sort arises and how it is sustained.


I'm not arguing against this. Whatever works is good. For whoever it works for.

I'm guessing both you and I have studied teaching in college. No, I don't mean spiritual teaching, just the art of teaching in general. I claim no skill or experience here, just an interest in the subject, which I'd guess we share.

If we are trying to teach a room full of kids how to do long division, and after decades, centuries even, very few of them are getting it, could it be time to modify our instructional methods?

A very few will pursue this diligently for 27 years until they get it. What about everybody else?

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Post by din » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:20 am

kiki wrote:
din wrote:There's no hope for me in this thread.
Let the damn thing die then. There's no hope for "me" in any thread.
My post was meant as a pointer.

It was not an expression of a problem.

I know this will sound redundant but... who will gain anything if the damn thing dies???

Recognizing that there's no hope for me is the ultimate surrendering, acceptance.

I will never get this, period!

But there's no problem here because there doesn't seem to be a someone who can make it into a problem.
:)

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Post by din » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:33 am

Hi Phil,

I'm really beginning to recognize your posts again.

And here's what I see.

I see someone who is more interested in a good discussion than in learning something. (or letting go of something)

That has always intrigued me about you.

You seem so "content" to be where you are.

I really can't relate at all.

Maybe you can enlighten me.
:)

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