House of cards

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
phil
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Post by phil » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:26 pm

din wrote:Why is that important to you that others have not joined in the discussion?
Why was it important to Tolle that you became part of this discussion Din?

Why did Tolle go to a lot of trouble to translate these teachings out of the language of ancient Indian masters, in to language you could access?

Why do you submit post after post after post on these subjects Din?

Again, for the 99th time.

When Tolle finds the discussion important, it's holy.

When you find the discussion important, it's profound.

When someone who may not always agree with you finds the discussion important, they are victims of a tragic pathology which Din must cure.

Jibberish, my friend, jibberish. I won't apologize, because I know you are not attached to any of your very many ideas. :-)

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din
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Post by din » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:20 am

Phil wrote:

Jibberish, my friend, jibberish. I won't apologize, because I know you are not attached to any of your very many ideas.
Finally!!!

Something we can agree on, all this posting is just for the sake of posting.

But not even that.

It is simply arising in the now.

Nothing else can be said about it. :roll:
:)

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Post by phil » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:14 pm

din wrote:Something we can agree on
We agree on the value of silence. Neither of us would be here daily for a year if we didn't.

And we agree on the value of Tolle's teachings. I've always said he is a gifted and very articulate person, a great teacher. I accept the reports of those who report they have benefited from his work.

As best I can tell, where we differ is that you tend to see Tolle's flavor of now teaching as "the way", whereas I see it as a way for one little group of people.

Our community here doesn't appear to be too interested in those outside it's own community.

To me, this reveals a weakness in Tolle's "it's all about you" approach. For you, it's all about "me and my situation" so there's no need to discuss any other group.
din wrote:all this posting is just for the sake of posting.
In this case, I'd have to agree.

It could have been different.

Just as Tolle writes his books for a purpose, to assist you, we could have used this space to consider how we might help someone else too.

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Post by summer » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:56 pm

Phil wrote
Our community here doesn't appear to be too interested in those outside it's own community.

To me, this reveals a weakness in Tolle's "it's all about you" approach. For you, it's all about "me and my situation" so there's no need to discuss any other group.
I question your assumption here Phil. I think that it is more a case that this board is limited to discussions about Tolle and The Power of Now. And not at all the case that everyone who posts here has no other interests.

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din
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Post by din » Thu Feb 22, 2007 7:55 pm

Phil wrote:
As best I can tell, where we differ is that you tend to see Tolle's flavor of now teaching as "the way", whereas I see it as a way for one little group of people.
Tolle's teaching has the power to awaken.

My own experience is testament to that.

And yet there is the insight that awakening simply happens.

Whether there's a teaching or not.

It's a paradox.
:)

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Post by din » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:00 pm

Phil wrote:
Our community here doesn't appear to be too interested in those outside it's own community.

To me, this reveals a weakness in Tolle's "it's all about you" approach. For you, it's all about "me and my situation" so there's no need to discuss any other group.
Does this really matter?

Does it change the price of tea in China?

These are just your thoughts.

You've already admitted that words are empty, perhaps you may be able to say the same about your thoughts.
:)

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Post by phil » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:49 pm

Hi Summer,
summer wrote: I think that it is more a case that this board is limited to discussions about Tolle and The Power of Now.
Ok, you're right Summer. It is a Tolle board, agreed.

I'm just asking, is it Tolle and PON that is important, or the experience of silence?

Wouldn't Tolle himself answer, the experience of silence?

Then what are helpful ways to share that experience with all those who aren't tuned to the world of Tolle?

Just trying to point to what I think all of his here already know without being told. The world beyond new age is much bigger than the world within new age. Many more people involved. We are not the center of the universe.
summer wrote:And not at all the case that everyone who posts here has no other interests.
I agree. You've caught me in a dramatic sweeping statement that deserves correction. Thanks, you help me with this regularly, and I appreciate it. Really.

Would it be reasonable to rephrase to say, so far the board has not expressed an interest in sharing silence with those beyond the world of Tolle?

They may have this interest, and I just don't see it yet. That would be a good outcome.

I offer you this thread. So far, we're going on page after page, talking about whether we should talk about somebody other than us, but never actually doing it.

Me and my situation, me and my situation.

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Post by phil » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:57 pm

din wrote:Does this really matter?
Perhaps not to you Din, that's cool.

You've steadfastedly declined to help us understand why teaching, words, thoughts, concepts matter so much to you and Tolle. Lots of books by Tolle, lots of posts by Din. We're left wondering why.

I've asked enough times, and feel I'd just be harassing you to keep asking.

No worries, we can just leave it like that. I've enjoyed discussing with you in any event.

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Post by summer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:23 am

Hi Phil.

I can only speak for myself, but I would say that Tolle really helped me see how much I had identified with being a "spiritual seeker". That this spiritual seeking was "my story" and I saw the triumphant end of "my story" as reaching some lofty spiritual understanding of The Truth. Hopefully with an eternal state of bliss and Nirvana thrown in :lol:

It sounds really funny to me now. And still I would say that a lot of people who read the Power of Now may very well be involved in a similar sort of journey to what I was.

Now I rarely even talk about spiritual and philoshical ideas anymore. And most of my friends probably don't even know who Tolle is. Like I think you are saying, it really doesn't matter all that much. Everyone has their own experiences of Silence and Inner Peace. And they may be stock brokers, politicians, golfers, housewives or anything else for that matter.

What we are all experiencing in our own ways, seems to be hard-wired into the DNA of the entire human species. It is an inner shift that can happen to anyone at all. And it doesn't require reading spiritual books or practicing spiritual disciplines.
Then what are helpful ways to share that experience with all those who aren't tuned to the world of Tolle?
In one sense, I would say that no-one can truly help another in this shift. It is an individual thing, and it happens when it happens. It doesn't seem to be a cause-effect phenomenon.

And yet being present, and paying attention to stillness ourselves, is probably one of the most effective ways of communicating Silence.

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Post by eseward » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:35 am

Well said IMO, summer.

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Post by phil » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:02 am

Thanks for the dialogue Summer, it's always fun to talk with you.
but I would say that Tolle really helped me see how much I had identified with being a "spiritual seeker"
summer wrote:In one sense, I would say that no-one can truly help another in this shift.
Well, it sounds like Tolle helped you in some way or another.

I guess I don't understand why we are continually reading and discussing Tolle, and then saying one can't help another, or it's somehow a problem to even try.

If we listen to Tolle's own actions, it seems he believes one can possibly help another, and it's a worthwhile project to at least try.

Tolle is trying to help. Tolle is simplifying the message so it can be accessed by more people.

Not sure why we shouldn't follow in his footsteps, and attempt to do the same.

Don't mean to make a big deal about it, because it's not the only issue in the world, but we might wonder why we are on page 4 of this thread, still debating whether we should be doing what Tolle himself is doing.
summer wrote:And yet being present, and paying attention to stillness ourselves, is probably one of the most effective ways of communicating Silence.
One effective way, no doubt, yes.

Not the only way.

Think of all the people involved in bringing these teachings to us. It's not just Tolle, eh? Lots and lots of people, with all kinds of skills, at various stages of awakening, including not interested at all.

Some of us will be role models of silence.

Others of us will load the UPS truck with books, or mail out the press releases, or oil the printing presses, or set up the sound system, or edit the video, or any of a million other things.

All of these people and skills are important, because if we remove any of them, nobody gets their Tolle book.

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Post by summer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:38 am

Hi Phil,

Maybe we are on page 4 because you are such a fun person to talk with.
I sure enjoy you. :)
Well, it sounds like Tolle helped you in some way or another.

I guess I don't understand why we are continually reading and discussing Tolle, and then saying one can't help another, or it's somehow a problem to even try.
Who is saying that it is a problem to try and help others?
I would say that it is our basic nature to want to help others. It is how love operates, with no thought needed at all.

As you mentioned once, when we pass a burning house our automatic response will be to help in any way that we can. We will just do it.

And I guess that is how I feel about helping others. When the opportunity arises, I will respond in the most appropriate way that I know how to. No need to think ahead about how I will respond. But then, I have no desire to be a teacher..

Many, many people have taught me a lot of valuable lessons in my life. And most of them have never written books, or given workshops. Still, there needed to be some space in myself to even hear the message.

Life is the ultimate teacher. And when we are ready, we listen.

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Post by phil » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:04 pm

summer wrote:Maybe we are on page 4 because you are such a fun person to talk with.
I'm sure that must be it! :-) Or it could be that I find myself a fun person to talk with, he says with an embarrassed grimace. :oops:
Who is saying that it is a problem to try and help others?
We are supposed to work on ourselves instead, because "me and my situation" is the only thing that matters. An ongoing drum beat, part of the ritual dogma, repeated over and over in many threads. Read Din above as a place to start.
I would say that it is our basic nature to want to help others. It is how love operates, with no thought needed at all.
No thought at all?

How much thought goes in to the writing, publishing and distribution of Tolle's books, the organizing of his speaking schedule, the reservation of retreat venues, etc, etc?

How much thought goes in to the creating of this web site, policing the spammers, moderating thousands of posts, and so on etc?

We accept these gifts of others exerting thought and effort trying to help us, and then go on to say helping "just happens" and that the New Earth will somehow miraculously just arrive, who knows how, no effort required.

Imho, this myopia arises out of an excessive focus on me and my situation, blinding us to all the effort and thought that others are deploying on our behalf.
As you mentioned once, when we pass a burning house our automatic response will be to help in any way that we can. We will just do it.
Yes, agreed. But our response will be more effective if we have studied fire fighting techniques, and use thought to apply the techniques to this specific fire. Without that preparation, we will probably just run around screaming "Help! Help!" and those trapped in the fire will perish.
But then, I have no desire to be a teacher..
Yes, this is true of you, and one of your charms. You've distinguished yourself on the forums with your gentle quietness, and lack of the blowhard gene. Those who would make the best teachers are not interested, isn't that always how it goes?

I enjoy the holistic balance between our styles.

We all are one, and it takes more than one. Someone like me is needed to sweep the bullpoop out of the barn, and then someone like you is needed to sweep the sweeper out of the barn.

In end, what might be left is a simple universal message many could hear, and someone kind and patient like yourself to deliver it.

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Post by din » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:24 pm

Hey Phil,
I'm sure that must be it! Or it could be that I find myself a fun person to talk with, he says with an embarrassed grimace.
Yes, you're posts can be very entertaining and lots of fun.

I see my mind at work in many of your posts.

((((Phil))))
:)

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Post by summer » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:45 pm

I am glad that I have a curious mind. I think that the question here is more "What is the right use of the mind?"

If we want to listen to silence, then a quiet mind is appropriate. And if we want to learn how to use a computer, then an active mind is the appropriate tool.

It is a little bit like taming a wild horse, rather than killing it :lol:

And paying less attention to the thoughts about "me, and my story" are a good method to reduce the suffering that all of that yamma yamma noise creates.

Sometimes I think of the brain as a computer with lots of different software programs in there. Our attention is the energy source that keeps the various programs running. Since attention is always powered by the energy of the present moment, if we keep on paying attention to old outdated software we keep it alive that way. And if we stop putting our attention there, it fades into the background. Let's dump the "Me, and my story" software in the trashcan.

I see learning about new subjects that are of interest to us, as installing new software programs into the brain. No problem here. The incentive is just to enjoy learning about new subjects.

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