Traditional Christianity

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Postby eseward » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:22 am

Webwanderer wrote:“Truth” allows the existence of God, in all the various concepts, as taught by any given religion, to fall where it may. Truth is no respecter of mans belief, Truth simply is what it is.


Or as Ron Smothermon pointed out, you don't need belief for what's true; it is true with you or without you. You really only need belief for what is not true. :)

Nice post, Webwanderer.
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Postby Webwanderer » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:35 am

Thanks eseward.

I like your posts as well when you let out a little. You are and asset to the forum.
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faith

Postby innermusiq » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:21 pm

Faith is not needed to live here and NOW, we have the proof, we are consciously aware of that fact.

However is conscious awareness eternal and continue/saved after the demise of the form well this is where Faith is required as there is no proof.

imo. there is no eternal life when the form dies. Consciousness is extinguished at the death of the body.Where's the proof to the contrary, apart from from what we've been Told.

The Earth is a fluke in the universe, we live in a giant compost heap where the forms are continually being recycled, just like E.T's forest in Silence Speaks. The rest is wishfull thinking with no proof of eternal conscious/awareness, but you can have faith to make you feel better.

Just my opinion.
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Postby Webwanderer » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:00 pm

Innermusic wrote:
imo. there is no eternal life when the form dies. Consciousness is extinguished at the death of the body.Where's the proof to the contrary, apart from from what we've been Told.

The Earth is a fluke in the universe, we live in a giant compost heap where the forms are continually being recycled, just like E.T's forest in Silence Speaks. The rest is wishfull thinking with no proof of eternal conscious/awareness, but you can have faith to make you feel better.


That sounds very Darwinian, very materialistic. My guess is you suffer a lot. This is the kind of thought/concept that goes on over at the Panda’s Thumb website. Historically it gave the world Eugenics and the Holocaust.

Is there a Creator? There is no physical proof. (Other than the universe itself) That believed lack of physical proof then proves, conceptually at least, that there is no Intelligent Creator. But then how did the universe come to be out of nothing? Must it have been magic?

Such thinking is the dualistic argument in action. It keeps the experience of separation alive and well. Such argument demands that the world of form prove the existence of that which created it. It’s no different than a demand that a painting prove the existence of the artist who painted it. But who would argue that a painting has no creator simply because the artist is not visibly present?

The better metaphor for the nature of Life is the dream. When one dreams, the dream world is generally accepted as reality whole cloth. No matter how bazaar, the dreamer rarely questions the authenticity of the dreamscape or the dream character that he/she identifies as being. But when one wakes from his or her dream, who laments for the lost existence of the dream character that one just just moments before identified as, and accepted as real. No loss is felt because the greater identity that animated that character continues unabated. What is lost, or left behind, is the false concepts of a separate identity. Truth of Being prevails.

Now there is the possibility of becoming lucid within ones dream. Cognizance of ones greater identity while dreaming, as related to being self-identified as the dream character, changes ones experience of the dream dramatically. It generally takes on more of a playground atmosphere, or a great and wonderful adventure. At minimum, direct recognition and understanding while in the dream state, generally frees the lucid dreamer from much of the emotional turmoil the dream may hold.

Consider then waking life as we know it, and the clarity of awareness we seek. It is not so much awareness we seek, as awareness always exists in whatever experience and form we may find ourselves. It is the clarity of awareness, that provides the freedom from false assumptions and beliefs, and that brings lucidity to the experience of whatever form we find ourselves in at any given moment.

You are correct that faith may make one feel better and is born of wishful thinking. However, it is the knowing that comes from direct experience of Clear Awareness that makes faith irrelevant and suffering unnecessary.
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Postby eseward » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:05 am

Great stuff in there, including...

Webwanderer wrote:It’s no different than a demand that a painting prove the existence of the artist who painted it.


Webwanderer wrote:No loss is felt because the greater identity that animated that character continues unabated.


Big smile. :)
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Thanks

Postby innermusiq » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:20 am

Thanks webW. I'l ignore the holocast, eugenics ( don't know what that is) etc comment not sure I understand why you say that and I'm not at all materialistic.

Well like Youdoodat I too came from a Christian background unshakable faith so I thought. I also faced the dilema he is facing yet I wanted to know the TRUTH. And yes because of suffering (like E.T. ) I discovered PON and A New Earth.

However, since wathcing thoughts and portal practice I was left with the opinion I expressed earlier.
Whenever I watch thought until they seem to stop and as I feel the inner body suddenly everything disappears. No Form, no conscious/awareness of being, the silence that was there, the feeling of Iam, all disappears and I remember absolutely nothing after that.This can last for hours but no time is percieved. Its as if NOTHING exists, when this ends there is only a BLANK.

What does this mean, what is happening, what conclusion can I come to only what I said previously. Iam completely lost NOW and I feel like a "dead man walking" with nothing inside, and illusion outside.

My suffering has only gotten worse and yes there is no "me" to suffer.

Any words of advice for a drowning man ?? I have no idea how I have been able to live like this for so long and since these experiences it seems utterly pointless. I have had many "dark nights" of the soul that I don't know how I've gotten thru' .

I can't even express how LOST and Alone ( even around family)I've become.
I had faith in a better afterlife but now all I have is BLANK.
Last edited by innermusiq on Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby YUDoodat » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:23 am

Thanks, Webwanderer for your careful, lengthy, and thorough reply.

I can see, if we continue on the tack we have chosen, we will be going round and round in circles. This is not an issue that can be debated and a definitive answer reached that will change any of us for the better. My ego has simply reacted to what my mind can't wrap itself around, and I have let my own fear of death have some control over my will. I know better than this, for "perfect love casts out fear". I am not yet perfected in love for God.

YUDoodat, there is one pertinent question that must be answered before any of the three claims you listed can be addressed. That is: what is most important, an understanding of the unvarnished truth of life, or loyalty to ones faith in God as taught by scripture? Another way to put it: which is a higher priority, knowing Truth or knowing God?


(I'm sure I'm not using the quote feature properly...)

Well, Webwanderer, perhaps our disagreement is semantic, but I would maintain that knowing God in an experiential relationship is far more important than having "an understanding of the unvarnished truth of life", as you have worded it. It is not possible to have a correct understanding of Truth - who but God is able to comprehend it all? What is far more important is the question: "What do we do with the little bit of truth that we do indeed possess?"

For me, everything in life boils down to matters of faith. What do you make of the biblical passage, "For without faith it is impossible to please Him (God), for whoever comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." We are enabled to "see" God only through the eyes of faith. When I look into the starry expanse at night, it is faith that enables me to perceive, and to stand in awe of the One who created it, as opposed to the one without faith who simply sees burning balls of hydrogen many light-years away, and does not know, or perhaps even care how they got there.

God is only perceived through eyes of faith and nothing else. Even for one such as yourself, faith is the operative force which propels you to seek for the God within. 'Being' can not be seen with the physical eyes or objectively studied with the mind. It certainly is not even a remote possibility for the ego to seek God. It can only pretend to do so in order to gain supposed stature and influence in the eyes of other egos.

So I fail to see how it can be anything other than faith through which we operate in our quest of the Ineffable; whether within the parameters of "organised" religion, or else outside them within some other mental construct such as that set forth by ET, or Ram Dass, or Castaneda, or Aldous Huxley. My point is they are ALL 'belief systems' while we are wandering through this life of form and duality, which thickly veils the spiritual Reality behind it all. It is not until we are free of the limitations of this physical life that we shall be able to see things more nearly as they truly are.

Allow me to further elaborate my point on faith. We all must wrestle with the questions of who and what we are going to put our faith in. To this point, I have chosen to put my faith in Jesus Christ. What I mean by that is: I believe what he himself said about who he is; I believe what those who wrote the Biblical prophecies predicted about the Messiah; and I believe what those who were his eyewitnesses have written about him.

Now, before anyone rushes to take issue that we can't base our faith on what someone else has said, let me remind you that we do this all the time in our daily lives. Our court system, which is imperfect as we all are, nevertheless bases it verdicts and judgments largely upon the testimony of witnesses, as well as upon empirical evidence. We trust maps that others have made to get us places that we've not been. We trust teachers to teach us things that, if we had to learn for ourselves, would take lifetime upon lifetime to understand and master. Some trust ET to reveal to them a better way than they by themselves have found. Most trust their own understanding when it comes to living out their personal lives.

I have learned that when I trust myself to find my way through life's maze, I end up hopelessly frustrated and lost. So, I know that I need a Guide. With so many out there, which one do I choose? I choose the best one I have found so far - Jesus Christ. If He is not who he said he is, then yes, this little life is lost. If He IS who he said he is (he said, "I AM the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me."), then I gain everything. I will have my enlightenment at the end of my life on this earth.

You see, Eckhart's worldview seems too impersonal to me. Also, there are too many pitfalls associated with going so deep within the 'self'. I do not trust my 'self'. For now, this is where I am and I make no apology for it.
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Postby Webwanderer » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:40 pm

Innermusic,

Darwinism holds that man is an accident in the random movement of matter. It further holds that man is the result of the evolutionary forces of random mutation and natural selection, that by chance, evolved into life and ultimately to man. From this purely material view of the nature of life, the idea was hatched that mankind would be best served by taking up selective breeding programs to improve the human species, and further to sterilize and euthanize “substandard” humans such as the mentally retarded and “lesser” races. This was Eugenics. The Nazis took up the idea of Eugenics and applied it to Jews and Gypsies. Thus, the Holocaust was born out of a sterile, conceptual framework of life.

So much for the history lesson.

However, since wathcing thoughts and portal practice I was left with the opinion I expressed earlier.
Whenever I watch thought until they seem to stop and as I feel the inner body suddenly everything disappears. No Form, no conscious/awareness of being, the silence that was there, the feeling of Iam, all disappears and I remember absolutely nothing after that.This can last for hours but no time is percieved. Its as if NOTHING exists, when this ends there is only a BLANK.


Watching thoughts is good so far as it goes. Stilling the mind is likewise good so far as it goes. Neither of these is an end, in and of itself. The point in both of these exercises is to clear space for a clear understanding that Awareness, Being, Identity, is not tied to thought and mind. Feel the nature of Life, actively, directly, without input from thought and mind. Apply no labels, no analysis, just drink in the full sensory taste of life as form, just as it is.

Make no attempts to hold the experience of your world at bay; rather invite in the direct experience of life, however you find it, in front of your nose. Do this without thought and mind adding interpretation or bias to what is at hand. It is that bias that creates the judgment and separation which leads to suffering and despair.

If you can find the silence as you say, not to be confused with blanking, then open up to whatever experience is in front of you. Rest in the wordless knowledge that what you see, hear, feel, smell and taste is a world within Awareness. It is what you are. Most importantly, allow an internal sense of gratitude, again wordlessly, to permeate that awareness. Gratitude for what? For anything, a fresh breeze, a beautiful sight, the opportunity to share a kind word; or just gratitude for life.

Be open throughout your day for opportunities in gratitude. If you can find nothing to be grateful for, then make that your search. It may well be the precursor to finding the peace and freedom from suffering that eludes you. If you truly want your life to change, make honest gratitude a way of life.
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Postby YUDoodat » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:11 pm

I am praying for you, Innermusiq.
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Postby Webwanderer » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:16 pm

Innermusic,

A little forum maintanance...

We are getting off topic here. If you wish to continue this dialog, please start a new thread.
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Traditional Christianity both literal and symbolic alive

Postby notanecho » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:53 pm

You have chosen the best of the best in your quest. Try not to get trapped in a complete Literal interpretation of the Holy Christian texts. The symbolic understanding of the texts will keep it relevant, alive and sensible as well as undenable There, is no better understanding of human nature than those found in Christian scriptures. Those writer were right on target. Regards, ALZ
Hello, I am interested in any contacts in the Prescott, Payun area of Arizona that follow and practice Tolle's insights. If you know of anyone or groups I might contact please send me a response. Thanks, Notanecho
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What is the direct experience not what believe.....Kiki,

Postby notanecho » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:42 pm

kiki wrote:Setting aside all teachings and viewpoints (biblical, philosophical, and otherwise), what is the direct experience of what you are? Not what you believe you are, not what a religion or philosophy teaches or tells you what you are, but what you are without reference to anything else.

Once that is "tasted" directly and becomes familiar, words and interpretations by others don't carry much weight. No one can then tell you to simply accept what was previously accepted as "true". Rather than rely on a bible or some religious text written long ago, consciously knowing what you are becomes the foundation/authority for how life is lived and experienced right now in this very moment. One then has no need/drive/passion to "convert" others to a belief system. Even asking questions like ""What does ET mean when he says such and such about the bible?" really doesn't have relevance for one who is awake to what one is. It may sway someone else to accept or reject what he says, but to one who is awake it is just more thought, more interpretation, more ideas - all useless to an awakened one. Wake up, then see what happens to "fundamentalism" of every kind.

I understand the concept that creation cannot be brought forth out of nothing, because 'nothing' cannot truly exist...And it does say in the Bible that mankind was formed in the image of God, but does it necessarily follow that we ARE God on the deepest level?


Is it a heresy to know what you are? The invitation that presents itself is to see for yourself. See what there really is at the deepest level - see if there is a "we", a "me", a "you" or an "other" that can have any label or name. Everyone has this opportunity but few will follow through with it even when they hear about it. Most will soothe any cognitive dissonance by retreating to something safe and familiar. Later, perhaps, the drive to discover what's really true will arise again and any cognitive dissonance will no longer hold one back because the call to return to the truth of what one is demands it. This call to return to the truth of what one is comes from truth itself, what you are, so it cannot be ignored forever in favor of any belief or idea.

BTW - happy birthday to you and your daughter Hope. And welcome to the board.

kiki
Kiki,

The Singularity of Jesus's bold pronouncements were that the direct experience and his behaviour were one and the same. There was no distinction between his life and the Word he spoke. He closed the gap between what one believes and how one is to behave. az
Hello, I am interested in any contacts in the Prescott, Payun area of Arizona that follow and practice Tolle's insights. If you know of anyone or groups I might contact please send me a response. Thanks, Notanecho
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Re: What is the direct experience not what believe.....Kiki,

Postby AndyD » Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:53 pm

Words are not the experience. As Fr. Anthony said, no one ever became drunk on the word wine.
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Thank you

Postby innermusiq » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:07 pm

Thank you WebW. and Yudoodat, its appreciated, will do as you have suggested.
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Re: What is the direct experience not what believe.....Kiki,

Postby notanecho » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:12 pm

AndyD wrote:Words are not the experience. As Fr. Anthony said, no one ever became drunk on the word wine.


Words are not the experience? I was speaking of THE WORD which was fulfilled in the Experience of Jesus and his disciples. Thus there is no distinction between the WORD and the Behaviour. No dualism here. That gap was closed but we have lost sight of The Way.

Tolle's followers speak of a direct experience of a Presence..but no one can speak of its qualities that supposedly descend in to one's Life.
Hello, I am interested in any contacts in the Prescott, Payun area of Arizona that follow and practice Tolle's insights. If you know of anyone or groups I might contact please send me a response. Thanks, Notanecho
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