Scientific explanations?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Locked
presentlybythesea
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:45 pm

Scientific explanations

Post by presentlybythesea » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:37 pm

Goldenflutest wrote:
My only issue was when I listened to that audio sample which sounded so much like a church preacher, I could see why that would turn a lot of people off.

Goldenflutest

I listened to the audio you found about Advanced Course... etc. and yes, I can see how it threw you off. And I don't recall anything in the "Course" about reincarnation as was spoken of on the audio. And of course you are correct the my God-vs-your-God is the source of hideous violence in the world.

Tolle, as you know refers to the "Course", as does he quote scripture but as metaphor: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." as humankind's obsession with ego. Incidentally, I read, "Misquoting Jesus" too and it was revealing how ancient scribes, some of them not very apt at their crafts, put together the books we call the gospel. You might want to read that as well.

Many, if not most of us, came from organized religious backgrounds. We had real issues with much of it as you did and here we are now. As Tolle says, religion often obscures the Oneness. I read the "Course" because he and others mentioned it. When I mentioned I was reading it to someone they referred me to a site as a warning not to. I went there and it described the "Course" as diabolical. The "Course" doesn't describe the burn-in-hell God many religions prefer to expound upon.

I'm not trying to sell you on it. I just found it very valuable and wouldn't like you to miss out on something if you can get past the "He" etc. I'd like to just touch on very little of it for you. I did find it a hard read and repetitive. I read a little at a time, very slowly.

It speaks of a loving God, not a vengeful God. It speaks of our error in believing in the ego and how that became the separation from where we once were.
"The second coming is merely the return of sense" pg 170

There were parts in it that sound like Tolle: "Heaven is not a place nor a condition. It is merely an awareness of perfect Oneness, and the knowledge that there is nothing else; nothing outside this Oneness, and nothing else within." pg. 384

"The only aspect of time that is eternal is now." pg.79,

It tells us not to see the error in others and to forgive but not to see the error at all. Only the love.

"When you want only love you will see nothing else." pg 231

The various books I've read on spiritual growth tend to dovetail toward the same ineffable Oneness. This has been one of them.

I hope this has been of some help to you.

I wish you peace,
Presentlybythesea
Every encounter in the present, an opportunity to affect collective human consciousness.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:02 pm

OnlyNow wrote:Ah Zen, the sudden path

They study for years :wink:
some do. most people who get enlightened have worked on it for years regardless of which category they belong to.

ninjin

Re: Scientific explanations

Post by ninjin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:05 pm

presentlybythesea wrote: Many, if not most of us, came from organized religious backgrounds.
...
I wish you peace,
Presentlybythesea
Have to say it ain't easy if you come from a atheist nihilistic background and was brought up in the least spiritual and religious country in the world either. :wink:.

User avatar
Seancho
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:44 am
Contact:

Re: Scientific explanations

Post by Seancho » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:40 pm

ninjin wrote:some do. most people who get enlightened have worked on it for years regardless of which category they belong to.
maybe work on it until they finally give up working on it.

If you bang your head against a wall long enough, eventually you learn that it hurts and you stop.
ninjin wrote: Have to say it ain't easy if you come from a atheist nihilistic background and was brought up in the least spiritual and religious country in the world either. :wink:.
Where are you from ninjin, North Korea?

The harder that wall is, the better. What a lucky guy you are!

My fave ET quote: "That which seems to be in the way, is the way."
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

ninjin

Re: Scientific explanations

Post by ninjin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:03 pm

Seancho wrote:
maybe work on it until they finally give up working on it.

If you bang your head against a wall long enough, eventually you learn that it hurts and you stop.
Well worked might be the wrong word. But it takes effort of some kind.
Spontaneous realisations is very rare. I just know about Ramana Maharashi, sort of Byron Kytie and of course Tolle. But Ramana is in its own category.
Where are you from ninjin, North Korea?
The harder that wall is, the better. What a lucky guy you are!
My fave ET quote: "That which seems to be in the way, is the way."
Hehe no I'm from Sweden. There is no "believers" of any kind in my family or relatives either. When I told my mother, when she asked what I was up to, about Mumonkan and Heigikuru. She laughed and said what a waste of time but if it makes you happy why not. :roll:

Student
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:44 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Student » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:15 pm

ninjin wrote:
OnlyNow wrote:Ah Zen, the sudden path

They study for years :wink:
some do. most people who get enlightened have worked on it for years regardless of which category they belong to.
The "false need/ demanding to get" mode of living can be deeply ingrained in our neuropathways. When we run into a challenging person or situation, those disfunctional neuropathways can be burned in like freeways in our minds. So, it requires awareness of the disfunction to get to the point of surrender, and then a lot more awareness to remember to surrender in the face of the next challenge. Eventually, like a muscle that we don't use, the disfunctional neuropathway will atrophy if it is abandoned and not used.

So overall, I have the impression that the path to enlightenment is to shift out of a "demanding to get" mode of living into a "giving attention to the present moment" mode of living. It seems to require a lot of clock time for most people unless there is a dramatic level of suffering that pushes us into a dramatic and deep level of surrender.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:59 pm

K I see it as to question everything. Free your mind as they say in the matrix movie.

User avatar
Seancho
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:44 am
Contact:

Post by Seancho » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:46 am

Isnt that the wildest conundrum?

It takes effort to finally realize that effort itself is the problem.

Wonderful! Stunning! Who is making all of this up?

Most people work all the time to maintain their self.

Some people realize that being a self is painful and so they work all the time to get rid of their self.

And a few people realize that 'getting rid of' is itself the self, and so finally give up effort all together.

Trying to be a self doesnt work. Trying not to be a self doesnt work.

Nothing works! Try your whole life, and nothing works.

Realize that nothing works and there is only one thing left to do

....nothing.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4587
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:21 am

Great post, Seancho, just terrific! Yes! Nothing works! Realize how nothing is "done" (jeez, now isn't that something to chew on - LOL)

Student
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:44 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Student » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:59 am

Seancho wrote:
Isnt that the wildest conundrum?


Try your whole life, and nothing works.

Realize that nothing works and there is only one thing left to do

....nothing.
Exactly! :D

I first saw this in J. Krishnamurti's book called the awakening of intelligence. He traced the root of fear to seeking to get satisfaction in life. I interpret this to mean escalating a want into a false need/demand. He then pointed out that if we "seek to get" not seeking to get, we are still seeking to get. When I first saw this paradox, my mind temporarily stopped, because I realized that there was nothing my mind could do to "get enlightenment," except surrender. Then I realized that awareness is always turned on, but just covered up by the compulsive "seeking to get" thoughts.

In another talk Krishnamurti said that his key to enlightenment was that he didn't mind whatever happened. So, he was operating without believing that he needed anything. If he believed that he needed things and was demanding things, he would have been upset when things "went wrong." He often describes his enlightenment by saying "I just see."

This also is why Eckhart said if you are in a mode of needing/demanding enlightenment, you will not experience it.


(By the way Ninjin, Krishnamurti would have approved very much of your statement to question everything).

User avatar
Seancho
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:44 am
Contact:

Post by Seancho » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:08 am

Right on Kiki and Student.

Indeed, nothing is very tricky and complicated. Many, many years to learn it. To achieve nothing you need a very advanced teacher.

I use my houseplant. :)

Cats make fine gurus too...advanced practitioners of Doing Nothing.

reminds me of an old Zen poem I heard once:

Sitting quetly, doing nothing.
Spring comes
And the grass grows by itself.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:26 am

It takes groundwork to get the first sign of enlightenment. Then it just suddenly happens when someone says driedshit. As in one zen koan.
The really interesting thing is that you have to get yourself out of logical thinking and yet use it. As with Ramanas question Who am I? to follow to the source.
Or as the say in simpson: "We've tried nothing and no-thing works"

Don't think J.Krishnamurti had any followers that got enlightened. Check http://www.strippingthegurus.com .

User avatar
Seancho
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:44 am
Contact:

Post by Seancho » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:30 pm

Are you sure it takes groundwork? Or could it be that enlightenment is so simple that all the groundwork does is to finally, once and for all, show you that planning, effort, groundwork is unnecessary? Nothing is necessary. Who is doing the work? and on what?

I was listening to Tolle on the headphones last night and he said something relevant: "Suffering is necessary, until you realize that it is unnecessary." Maybe the same could be said of work, or effort.

Coincidentally, my Guru cat has arrived as Ive been typing. She wasnt very interested when I put the question of effort to her, but did start purring madly when I scratched her head.

Maybe one day I will be so wise. After enough effort, of course.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

Wings
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:50 pm

Post by Wings » Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:41 am

Coincidentally, my Guru cat has arrived as Ive been typing. She wasnt very interested when I put the question of effort to her, but did start purring madly when I scratched her head.

Maybe one day I will be so wise. After enough effort, of course.
Seancho, animals, dogs, and cats sometimes leave me wondering. A not to healthy habit is to hand feed tidbits to family pets that can screw up there diet and orfice leakage results from it unexpectedly. So I decided not to feed my daughters Poodle small portions of whatever I’m snacking on from time to time while watching the tube.

Poodles are supposed to be smart animals and just watching them (witnessing as we know it) like Tolle has mentioned, can tell you allot about what you are not. This particular Poodle like probably many other pets, have a way of resigning themselves with the ease, style and grace which at times makes one question the way we balance life.

The other day while reclined, feet up on the recliners pedestal, the Poodle jumps on my lap looking to me with that anticipatory gaze seemingly waiting for me to make up my mind as to whether I was going to give her a little piece of whatever I was munching on. She’d look and continue staring until her eyes bore a hole in my will and then I’d tell her “no” in a stern voice.

She casually and politely turned around, faced toward the tube, took a deep breath while nuzzling and resting her head on my feet extended on the recliners footrest. I looked at her assuming it was a ploy and in a few moments, she’d be back at me staring for more. Wrong, she didn’t. Instead she was totally resigned, and acceptance to “what is,” as if having just surrendered in a way which tested my doubts and in someway brought a kind of enlightenment as to how serenity and acceptance can be. :D

User avatar
Narz
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:16 am
Location: NY Metropolitan Area
Contact:

Post by Narz » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:53 am

Seancho wrote: Falling in love, and observing people in love are two mutually exclusive experiences. The latter does not help at all with the former.
I question your use of the phrase "at all". If studying something in a detached way yields nothing why do people do it?
Student wrote:I like Ninjin's original question regarding a scientific expanation of enlightenment. As Eckhart wrote "the mind loves a puzzle, like a dog loves to chew on a bone." He also wrote that investigating things is fine as long as it is not compulsive (ie self seeking). Overall, I agree that knowing peace is better than a scientific explanation about peace.

This is the closest I have been able to come to a "scientific" explanation of the peace that I am able to feel by applying Eckhart's recommendation to surrender and observe what is.

When we think that there is anything that we "need to get" in order to be at peace, and demand that we get it, we place ourselves into suffering. But when we de-escalate the false need and demand to the level of a want or preference it doesn't seem to produce the suffering. For example, when we mistakenly think that we "need to get certainty" about surviving tomorrow in order to be at peace now, and demand certainty about surviving tomorrow, we suffer the fear of not surviving tomorrow. This is because we are fighting with the reality of impermanence. But we seem to be able to want survival as a preference, and to take actions in the present moment to keep this body alive, without plunging into suffering.

I think this involves an internal shift from a "demanding to get" mode of living to a "giving attention" mode of living. The demand to get mode of living is what seems to drive the compulsive thinking. So if I demand to "get" enlightnment, and work really hard to stop my complulvie thinking, I haven't really shifted out of the "demand to get" mode of living into the "giving attention" mode of living.

So, this is my guess as to why surrender, which means dropping demands, and giving attention works to bring peace.
That's a nice post. Thank you! I'm going to forward this to my girlfriend also. :)

Back to reading now (only on page 5)
“Seek simplicity but distrust it”

InfinityCurve - my YouTube Channel :)

Locked