Scientific explanations?

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Goldenflutist
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Post by Goldenflutist » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:30 pm

Okay I amended the thread to not include the man but the pointers he mentions. That is what has brought about the change, not the man himself.
A liberal discussion community revolving around Eckhart Tolle but not limited to him


This is right under the title of the forum. I was referring to the first half of the statement. I understand that what has been going on in these threads relate to the other half.
A dog's eyes reflect the innocence and beauty of nature.

ninjin

Re: relgion

Post by ninjin » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:21 pm

Goldenflutist wrote: ... As I stated in my first thread, I became a hard-core atheist and proceeded to try and convince the religious world that they were morons, (egoism at its worst) that religion is nothing more than a crutch to escape from the realities of life and death. I needed to find something in between. I feel Tolle's pointers have come closer to any, so I am resting here.
Find such atheists funny. They become that which they loath so much. Just look at Dawkins and people hanging at Atheist Nation and the likes. Atheist fundamentalists as I call them.
Personally I'm sometimes atheist and sometimes agnostic depending on the circumstances.
I like Tolle also because of the lack of religious connection thou there are certain aspects of it when he is quoting various scriptures.
The best advise I found in texts is something like: "When you see Buddha kill him, when you see the boddhisattvas kill them too".

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:34 pm

Webwanderer wrote: Isn't this just speculation? The origin of consciousness has not been conclusively determined. The brain may well be a reciever through which a universal awareness perceives. Add to that the brain's storehouse capacity for memories and concepts of perception, and it's easy to see how personality perspectives develope and individualization manifests. All other foibles of the brain add further distinction to the individualization causing further refinement of personality, and in most cases the presumtion of seperateness from other manifestations of form.

Science may look at brain function but it is unlikely to demonstrate an origin of awareness.
Of course it is speculation but its the most probable explanation. The brain has many areas that can be damage so you loose your personality or it changes, constant OBE, lack of boundaries, loss of spacial and time recognition and a lot more. Its very probable that the collection of brain functions is what makes us aware. We have a lot of brain functions.

If you read through Awakening 101 there is a women there who gets enlightened at the bus stop and then 10 years later when the bus hits as she called them intensifies and gets more frequent she goes to see a doctor who says she has a brain tumor. During these years she meets a lot of people that says she is enlightened when the most probably conclusion is that the first experience she had at the bus stop what infact the first sign that the brain was damage. But because of the "close minded" so called enlightened people didn't understand how the brain functions or even tell her to go see a doctor she dies from the tumor. http://www.angelfire.com/realm/bodhisattva/segal.html
Why did you add the "strings" to lucy's comment on vibrating energy? String theory is a whole different issue. It's fairly well known that all matter is in motion, and at its fundamental level energy vibrates into frequencies of light.
Its the only theory that is spread in the "community". Don't know of any theory that revolves around vibrating energy. Basically we don't have any idea what the heck the universe is made of or from what or how it originated or why it is the way it is.
Well regarding the last bit they do suggest that that is just a problem of number of universes. If there is an infinite number of universes it is probable that one would be created in such a way that it could sustain life that asks the question.

Goldenflutist
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alas, I laugh with you

Post by Goldenflutist » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:25 pm

ninjin wrote
Find such atheists funny. They become that which they loath so much. Just look at Dawkins and people hanging at Atheist Nation and the likes. Atheist fundamentalists as I call them.
Personally I'm sometimes atheist and sometimes agnostic depending on the circumstances.
You are so right ninjin about what you said in the above quote. :) I did become what I loathed so much. Of course when I realized I could not prove "god" whatever that many mean to some did not exist no more than the religious community could prove that "god" did exist, I began to call myself an agnostic. Of course my agenda remained the same no matter what I called it. Now, I am finished with labels. I wouldn't even say I am enlightened to the man on the street. I simply realize now that whatever I have assimilated is working for me as far as bringing peace and acceptance to my existence in this present form.
A dog's eyes reflect the innocence and beauty of nature.

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Seancho
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Post by Seancho » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:30 am

Basically we don't have any idea what the heck the universe is made of or from what or how it originated or why it is the way it is.
Yay! This sentence is pure music to my ears.

Thats because...Im a Fundamentalist Agnostic. Thats right, you heard me, a militant Fundamentalist Evangelical Agnostic! I am ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that I dont know what the bleep is going on, and YOU had better not know anything either! Further, it is my mission in life to show everybody that everything they know is wrong!

Anybody claims to know anything, they are going to get it from me! My friends and I will show up at your house and burn a question mark in your lawn. Mess with me and I will doubt that you even exist!

Q How many agnostics does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A Its really friggin dark, how can we know for sure there is a lightbulb?

"There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he really doesn't know whether he believes in it or not!" - Eric Idle

"Convictions make convicts." - Robert Anton Wilson
Last edited by Seancho on Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

Goldenflutist
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spine tingler

Post by Goldenflutist » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:35 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for bring in the much needed levity :wink:
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Post by lucy » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:24 am

Thanks for the laugh Seancho.

Ninjin, Why not follow what led you here? Your ideas are great and you can definitely hold your own in a debate, but your need to debate these ideas shows that you are not satisfied with your own beliefs, if you were, you would be resting in them. The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.

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Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:39 am

The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.
Love it! :D

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:46 am

lucy wrote: Ninjin, Why not follow what led you here? Your ideas are great and you can definitely hold your own in a debate, but your need to debate these ideas shows that you are not satisfied with your own beliefs, if you were, you would be resting in them. The mind is like a parachute, it works best when it is open.
Well the hole start of this thread was my interest in what enlightenment actually is =) on a biological level. Just because you can't explain an experience doesn't mean that its paranormal.
You should also know that I have no problem with arguing for either side in a debate and I often change my opinions depending the surroundings. Why you might ask.
Well basically if everyone agrees with each others and pat each others backs there is no progress. It often also shows flaws in both mine and the one I'm debating withs arguments. To form an opinion you need to know both sides of the story :wink:. I have noticed that most people just stick with their framework no matter what. But I have to say that atheists and agnostic is more rational and use logic than those that are not. Both sides have irrational fears and that is interesting.

presentlybythesea
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scientific explanations

Post by presentlybythesea » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:08 pm

Journeymate, Ninjin

I read with interest your perspective as a "scientific atheist" and respect that. If that works for you, if you are at peace, continue. I must say however that I failed to get a sense of peace in you from your postings; but you may been able to contain the serenity you have and not reveal it here. I can only relate my experience, what works for me.

For me, experiencing the Watcher as the One in all of us is a return to reality. Something eternal within tells me yes, this I know is true. Tolle tells us early on in "The Power of Now" that what he reveals to us through the book will make us say, yes, I knew that.

Before I read Tolle I did know of course that something fundamental was amiss with the communication and interaction in humankind; from the ego duals of daily life to the absolute insanity of international killing. But I could not detect the source of the problem until Tolle so clearly revealed it to us.

I can only tell you that when I go within, and am still, and am present, I am in a serene place. I am one with all of us, a manifestation of Spirit. The bright light from the sky has no name; I just experience it's warmth on my face as I plunk my feet across the planet.

Now those are just moments in a day of course. And I did wonder how that would work to help me to find peace in other moments.

Soon I realized that when I became present it was as if I had reinforced a keel that was within me. The serene lake on which stillness took me was bliss. But when I was back in the storm-tossed seas of the ego-world the keel was still with me. I had stability and could more easily resist the provocations of egoic madness. You might explain this as mental training. I believe however that in these moments we touch on something we, as humanity, once had but somehow lost.


Some things stick with me from various readings. One of them, to me both powerful and fundamental is from "A Course in Miracles". Never attack but only extend peace. So simple, yet so profound. I try to live that.

Stillness works for me, Ninjin. The belief that we are all One sustains me. Maybe if more of us on this planet practiced stillness and treated each other as ourSelves, it might result in a saner humankind.

Thank you for your contribution to this site, Ninjin. You certainly provided a feast of some red meat for many of us.

I appreciate your taking opposing sides in discussions as well. Yes, of course, that is the only way to hone the razor's edge.


I wish you peace,

Presentlybythesea
Every encounter in the present, an opportunity to affect collective human consciousness.

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Post by eseward » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:34 pm

Very beautiful post IMO, presentlybythesea. Not parroting, but rather another beautiful and individual description of the same exquisite sunset.

ninjin

Re: scientific explanations

Post by ninjin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:01 am

presentlybythesea wrote:Journeymate, Ninjin
I read with interest your perspective as a "scientific atheist" and respect that. If that works for you, if you are at peace, continue. I must say however that I failed to get a sense of peace in you from your postings; but you may been able to contain the serenity you have and not reveal it here. I can only relate my experience, what works for me.
I'm certainly not enlightened wouldn't say that I have peace either. Don't really know what peace is. Can shut off thoughts in meditation and have to say that I'm happy for like 99% of the time. The only time I would say I'm at peace is when I'm 100% focused on the "outside". Maybe should write some intro in order to get advice on how to "evolve" :D.
Stillness works for me, Ninjin. The belief that we are all One sustains me. Maybe if more of us on this planet practiced stillness and treated each other as ourSelves, it might result in a saner humankind.
Yepp that is how I live my life. A lot of suffering in the world is caused by people wanting everything to be done their way. If we all just worked together for one world goal at the time we would get a much happier planet a lot faster. But as it are now there is tons and tons of organizations that value their own cause most and that just doesn't work. A lot of ego is involved when it comes to helping other people. UN has the power but its driven only by egos.
Thank you for your contribution to this site, Ninjin. You certainly provided a feast of some red meat for many of us.
....
I wish you peace,
Presentlybythesea
Hehe yepp and thx.

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Post by lucy » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:12 am

Ninjin, it's refreashing to read that you can debate both sides of the arguement. The truth is undivided, whenever you take a side, it is only a perspective; The other side can be equally true. In my view the truth only exists as a whole, once a perspective is taken, you have splintered it and it is obscured. Debate is a good exercise for the mind, it keeps it sharp, but the mind is not vast enough to hold the truth.

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Post by Goldenflutist » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:39 am

presentlybythesea wrote
Stillness works for me. The belief that we are all One sustains me. Maybe if more of us on this planet practiced stillness and treated each other as ourSelves, it might result in saner humankind.
I know exactly what you mean presently.. The realization above was a watershed moment for me, and reflecting on it can fill me with such intense joy.

I have found myself looking at other people, and for a moment, I can look completely past the form and see the true essence that they are, and it is beautiful to behold.

It fills me with intense love and oneness with all things. Even the humble mushrooms I run into on my walks with Dutch can create that level of joy.

I like thinking that their essence is the same as mine, and I could just as easily been born into this earth in their present form, and we respect each other for that.

GoldenF
A dog's eyes reflect the innocence and beauty of nature.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:00 pm

lucy wrote:Ninjin, it's refreashing to read that you can debate both sides of the arguement. The truth is undivided, whenever you take a side, it is only a perspective; The other side can be equally true. In my view the truth only exists as a whole, once a perspective is taken, you have splintered it and it is obscured. Debate is a good exercise for the mind, it keeps it sharp, but the mind is not vast enough to hold the truth.
Well most of the time the other side isn't equally true. Most peoples beliefs/opinions are based on misinformation, lack of information and in some cases just plain lies.
And there are some truths in world and more probable answers.

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