Are GURUs lying? Is realization that easy?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
dubhasa
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:28 pm

Are GURUs lying? Is realization that easy?

Post by dubhasa » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:28 pm

So far, from what ever I have read or understood, most of the GURUs are saying the same thing,

Just open your eyes
There is nothing to do
Nowhere to go
Nothing to achieve

While they themselves have spent many years, decades, practically whole life pursuing the goal, practicing, making herculiean efforts. There is not a single GURU which I would see was enlightend while eating burger or chomping on donuts.

Eckhard Tolley comes to close since I don't know his efforts per say.
otherwise, GURUs include everybody from Buddha to take your favorite pick Adyashanti, Nisargdatta whoever.

What exactly am I missing in this picture?

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:52 pm

Well I would say most gurus do not say that if they have any brain left. Certainly not as an instruction for how reach realization.
Ramana Marashi didn't, The Zen patriarchs didn't, ET doesn't and so on. From what I can remember Nisaraddatta Masaraja or what ever its names was didn't either. Don't know anything about Adyashanti's teachings but what I can remember he came from the Zen grouping and worked hard to get where he is.
When they say its already there they speak of a post enlightenment realisation. Its like searching for your glasses when they were on your nose.

I don't know if there are any realised people writing on this forum. Haven't gotten that impression anyway. But if there are they can also talk of the work they put in. Work as in everyday 24/7 practice which is required for most of us- We that doesn't have sudden realisations such as Ramana Maharashi and Byron Katie.

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4591
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Essentially they are saying that you are already enlightened so there is nothing to do. The "enlightened" state is your true essence, what you are in reality. That reality is covered up by mental condtioning and activity so it isn't seen any more. And the ironic thing is that the search for it keeps it at arm's length. Therefore, to return to the conscious experience of your true nature (enlightenment) recognize when something is being done and that doing stops.

You see, the mind is always doing something and the ego is looking for satisfaction and fulfillment in what the mind does. When it comes to the "search for enlightenment" the mind looks everywhere and does everything it can think of, and the ego suffers at the mind's failure at finding the answer.

So, what is the answer to this dilemma? Recognize how and when the mind engages for answers by seeking, recognize the strategies the ego uses (in the moment they arise) to get what it thinks it doesn't already have. In the moment of recognition that seeking is taking place the opportunity arises to stop - to do nothing and return to the natural state where nothing is being sought, where everything is totally acceptable just as it is.

So really all that's happening is interrupting the seeking for answers and relaxing back into the natural state of awareness where nothing is being done. The ones who struggle for years prior to their awakening will tell you that the moment of awakening came when all struggle stopped. It didn't happen because they achieved something through effort, but it revealed itself as already present when effort ceased.
Last edited by kiki on Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

weichen
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 am
Location: NYC

Post by weichen » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:36 pm

While they themselves have spent many years, decades, practically whole life pursuing the goal, practicing, making herculiean efforts

Eckhart used the term vigilance to describe his life after becoming famous, he voiced his concern about his own physical situation in interview and said that he would rest himself (to avoid physical problem due to exhaustion). So there is some efforting in Eckhart, but not the efforting to become (or stay) enlightened, but efforting (self sacrifice) to help other people to wake up.

dubhasa
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:28 pm

Post by dubhasa » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:51 pm

Thanks kiki for your answer. I understand it conceptually. But don't you need an effort even to observe; not necessarily active seeking? Ability to stand aside from the mental flow without falling in again and again, getting back to now after losing in some thought again and again; as ninjin referred 24x7; requires HUGE effort.
Atleast that is what I experience. It may be the case that GURUs spend years and years perfecting the skill to such a level that it becomes effortless. Like a PHD professor reading kindergarden book. Technically you would call professor's reading as effortless but for average kindergarden student like me, it is a whole different story!
I fully agree with your description of mind and it's self defeating seeking. But even to maintain awareness(may be at non mind level) to observe seeking mind; is a skill that I do not have a mastery over. I think I can, I know I can do it. I(in a general sense) can observe my mind fully and impartially without running any commentary. But it is a HUGE effort to stand aside out of mind and observe. Mind activity seems to have a pull like gravity or like a magnet, I visualize it like a giant whirlpool.
May be I(?) really need to make HUGE effort to master this skill so that it can be effortless.

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4591
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:20 pm

But don't you need an effort even to observe; not necessarily active seeking?
When you see a tree how much effort was involved? When you hear a child laugh how much effort was involved? When you taste a lemon how much effort was it to know of its tartness? It's the same with everything, but then what usually happens is the mind adds on to it with labels and the ego looks to judge it in some way.

I think you are making more out of "vigilence" than is necessary. Yes, in terms of awakening there is a vigilence that is helpful, but don't make that vigilence into some huge effort that then becomes an obstacle. Just keep returning to the present moment where everything is as it is and leave judgment out of perceived lapses into unconsciousness. Without the judgment, without "Hurculean efforts" you will find that there will arise a sharpening of attention on the now and the straying from it.

Being what you are isn't a skill like reading or solving mathematical equations. Being what you are takes no effort - knowing what you are simply takes alertness/attention to what's happening.

Be gentle with yourself - all is well.

weichen
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 am
Location: NYC

Post by weichen » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:56 pm

If there are one penny and one $100 bill on the floor, you are allowed to pick up only one item, does it take a lot of effort to pick up the $100 bill and resist picking up the penny ?

Thoughts (especially those repetitive thoughts that are based on delusion, conflicting values) blind us to beautiful truth, once one realize that, it becomes easier to disidentify from the thought. So each action of watching and disidentification is often instantly rewarded through peace and deeper knowing (and spontanesouly correct action), it is really fun rather than efforting.

eseward
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:27 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Post by eseward » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:45 pm

weichen wrote:Thoughts (especially those repetitive thoughts that are based on delusion, conflicting values) blind us to beautiful truth, once one realize that, it becomes easier to disidentify from the thought. So each action of watching and disidentification is often instantly rewarded through peace and deeper knowing (and spontanesouly correct action), it is really fun rather than efforting.
Beautifully said, weichen! I'm really appreciating your posts lately! :)

User avatar
Seancho
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:44 am
Contact:

Re: Are GURUs lying? Is realization that easy?

Post by Seancho » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:13 am

dubhasa wrote:While they themselves have spent many years, decades, practically whole life pursuing the goal, practicing, making herculiean efforts. There is not a single GURU which I would see was enlightend while eating burger or chomping on donuts.
did they get there by pursuing goals? Or did they get there by finally realizing the futility of all their goal seeking? Maybe they got there by realizing they were already there.

When there is nowhere else to go, where are you?

Are you there?
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

User avatar
MatthewCromer
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:00 am
Contact:

Post by MatthewCromer » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:17 am

did they get there by pursuing goals? Or did they get there by finally realizing the futility of all their goal seeking? Maybe they got there by realizing they were already there.
It was seen (by no one) that the assumtion of being a person is not real. That in fact all that exists is the Observational Awareness of Beingness.
mc

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:35 pm

Seancho they did have a goal that they worked towards. What they also realised after they had reached their goal was that it was worth pursuing otherwise neither of us would be here discussing these matters because the realised ones would have kept it to them selves.
No advaita vedanta, no headlessness, no buddhism, no sufism, no gnosticism, nothing that guides you to the realisation would be written down and passed on.

What is very common at this forum is called neo-advaita and doesn't do anyone any good. You should really read about it.

http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/tr ... ad_neo.htm

Stacey Heartspring Encounters the Postmodern Craze of Neo-Advaita
http://www.wie.org/j22/stacey.asp

Watering down Advaita: (Westerners Corrupt Hindu Terminology!)
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/Yadvaita.htm

mikel
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:35 am
Location: ireland

Post by mikel » Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:53 pm

I learn alot from everything, neo or not, it makes no difference, everything that has brought me to this moment has helped. I embrace that I know absolutely nothing about anything, it's full of paradoxes :)

One minute I am lost in thought the next I am present in awareness and open, is this right or wrong? should I care... whenever I like I can choose to be abide in that place within me that is always the same, that knowing which i can only sense... the more I sense it the more it comes alive and becomes the ground of everything... fear or anything else cannot rest here because it is only "this" and nothing else. There is "this" and there is the mind trying to understand it... Now I have a choice, to be this without questioning which is peacefull or to try and understand this with mind which makes me anxious and confused.

yesterday I was a little anxious, today I am peaceful... Is that right or wrong? should I care... I am beginning to realise that I am my own best friend... there is no wrong way to be me... there is no right way to be me... there is no me, just "this" which seems to be a me...

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6831
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Very well said mikel. I AM in agreement :)

aanwezigheid
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Antwerp, Belgium

Post by aanwezigheid » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:38 pm

Indeed, I agree with Webwanderer. Beautifully said Mikel :).

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:25 pm

Mikel you forget that bad teaching is still bad teaching whether you exist or not. I don't even think you know anything about what I'm writing either. Just as you yourself write.
Why write to say "I'm ignorant and I want to stay ignorant"? I don't care if you want to stay ignorant or not. I really don't think that anyone cares about that either. It doesn't bring the question raised by the original poster to light.

And for the rest of you.
It's just funny. Really laughable the behaviour that people have here. A lot of groupthinking. I've seen the same behaviour in islamist forums, feminist forum all these outside groups.
Why hold each others back all the time? What is gained from that behavior?
I say "KILL THE GURUS".

Post Reply