The universe as a hologram?

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ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:12 pm

We are the box looking at the box.
The human selfishness comes from denial of the reality most of that denial comes from ignoring death. 9 out of 10 people don't change in face of death.
If we embraced death for everything we would have a different society all together. We wouldn't fight over stupid things and a lot more. We would value all aspects of life a hole lot more.
So the selfishness of humans comes not from the egocentric perspective it comes from the ignoring of death, the ignoring of death creates the egocentric perspective.

Also without a sense of self you can't function so its not the self you drop but there is something you change. You are the same person after enlightenment as you were before.
And no one can say that the reality you see when your enlightened is the true reality claiming that is both arrogant and ignorant.

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Seancho
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Post by Seancho » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:43 pm

Goodness Ninjin, you are sounding more and more like a religious fanatic all the time...

Everything youve said pre-supposes that a real material universe exists! How do you know? Faith?

Is this some kind of mystical knowledge that only you are privileged to access or do you have evidence?

The perception of intelligence as an argument for a 'real' universe sounds suspiciously familiar. So now you are preaching Intelligent Design?

And what are all these heads you keep talking about? If what you are saying is that everything you experience is mental, then I ask you again, what makes you so sure that your mental experience corresponds to a real material world? Sounds like theology to me.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:14 pm

I don't know what you mean by a real material universe. What is a unreal material universe? What is a illusory universe?
What we are discussing is the assumption that the universe is unreal, illusion and so on.Your not bringing anything to the table except negating my assumptions. Bring forth theories that says its unreal and illusory otherwise the hole discussion is pointless.
The perception of intelligence as an argument for a 'real' universe sounds suspiciously familiar. So now you are preaching Intelligent Design?
Learn to read before you insult me.
And what are all these heads you keep talking about? If what you are saying is that everything you experience is mental, then I ask you again, what makes you so sure that your mental experience corresponds to a real material world? Sounds like theology to me.
The interpretation of the sensory inputs is the unique perspective that is created by the brain. And the heads I'm talking about comes from the English expression "It's all in your head".
How can the box prove its a box if all there is is a box?
Now its your turn to put forth some evidence that the universe is a illusion.
None of the sages say that the physical world is an illusion.

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Webwanderer
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Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:50 pm

ninjin wrote:Now its your turn to put forth some evidence that the universe is a illusion.
None of the sages say that the physical world is an illusion.
Maya
Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia - Cite This Source

"maya, in Hinduism, term used in the Veda to mean magic or supernatural power. In Mahayana Buddhism it acquires the meaning of illusion or unreality. The term is pivotal in the Vedanta system of Shankara, where it signifies the world as a cosmic illusion and also the power that creates the world."


The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia Copyright © 2004, Columbia University Press.

Licensed from Columbia University Press


Please try to be civil with each other. There is plenty of ego to observe in the world without the caustic comments to generate more. Everyones cooperation is appreciated.

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Seancho
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Post by Seancho » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:23 am

Hey we are just having fun, arent we? I like to give Ninjin a hard time, cause hes so good at it himself. :) I should add more smileys.

Look, Im not saying that the universe IS an illusion. My position on this extremely grave and crucially important philosophical question is very simple...I have no position. :)

I dont know what the hell is going on, and I really dont believe anything. All I can say for sure is that there is awareness and certain perceptions passing through that awareness. The rest is, for me, speculation.

And so...what I am, and what the world is, is an open question. What I am really interested in is why I have suffered so much in this life. And all I can say about that is, Ive learned that the more I believe in a world separate from and outside of my awareness, the more frightened, upset and lonely I feel.

Believing myself a separate actor from the phenomenal world makes me unhappy. So I drop that belief. All I know for sure is consciousness. And in the simple experience of conscious being there is no problem. Im happy to leave it at that.

The rest is just fun and games. Silliness that comes and goes. Maybe reality is just what is important. And what is not important is unreal. For me the important thing is what endures. And thats awareness. The forms appearing in awareness come and go, and so....illusion.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

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Post by weopposedeception » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:37 am

Nice post Dongle. Tell us more.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:16 am

Webwanderer wrote: Maya
Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia - Cite This Source

"maya, in Hinduism, term used in the Veda to mean magic or supernatural power. In Mahayana Buddhism it acquires the meaning of illusion or unreality. The term is pivotal in the Vedanta system of Shankara, where it signifies the world as a cosmic illusion and also the power that creates the world.

It refers to the world of senses which gives rise to the thought of duality not the actual world. The illusion is that it hides Brahman like a magic trick.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:25 am

Seancho wrote:Hey we are just having fun, arent we? I like to give Ninjin a hard time, cause hes so good at it himself. :) I should add more smileys.

Look, Im not saying that the universe IS an illusion. My position on this extremely grave and crucially important philosophical question is very simple...I have no position. :)
You boring human.
I dont know what the hell is going on, and I really dont believe anything. All I can say for sure is that there is awareness and certain perceptions passing through that awareness. The rest is, for me, speculation.
I question that assumption that is for just speculation.
And so...what I am, and what the world is, is an open question. What I am really interested in is why I have suffered so much in this life. And all I can say about that is, Ive learned that the more I believe in a world separate from and outside of my awareness, the more frightened, upset and lonely I feel.

Believing myself a separate actor from the phenomenal world makes me unhappy. So I drop that belief. All I know for sure is consciousness. And in the simple experience of conscious being there is no problem. Im happy to leave it at that.
Hmm I come from a place of barely "suffered" at all. It's all life in my opinion. Never really seen a good definition of suffering.

I see that the purpose of life is to live it to the fullest (fullest varies from person to person) and then it doesn't matter if its real or unreal all that matters is that when you go home you can say to yourself I had an awesome ride.

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Post by Shion » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:18 pm

ninjin wrote:We are the box looking at the box.
Hahaha, come on Ninjin give yourself a break.
You start from the presumption that you are already a box.
What can you see then, but a box ?
Such affirmation doesn't help but to stay in Ninjin's presumption. Eventually one wants to solely look and discover.
9 out of 10 people don't change in face of death.
Do such numbers matter to you ??
What if it doesn't matter to anybody in this thread ? :wink:
Also without a sense of self you can't function so its not the self you drop but there is something you change. You are the same person after enlightenment as you were before.
Wow, is that your experience ??
What about admitting yourself that you don't know nothing about it and what you wrote is completely doubtful by you.
Now, what's your next belief ? That instead you know ? Are you 100% sure in your heart ?
Or you don't know ?
Does your mind have a problem now ?
Don't care ! It's mind, illusion, the game of maya :wink:

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Post by Shion » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:52 pm

Today we know that a distant object in space is seen as it was in the past, like our sun, more than 8 minutes ago.
As we see the moon, it's not there, it was there one second ago.
So that event that make up our realities are different than the reality that is now happening in a far location. Only what's happening now is really happening in the physical universe, but the light or sounds that we perceive need time to travel, not only to arrive to our organs but even to arrive from organs to brain.
The laws of the universe make its unreality.
If we look at the universe around us we notice this.

That's why we too are unreal, everything. Mind, perceptions, memories, our story.
Still there is a feeling of awareness, of knowing.
We can feel that it is impossible to cease to "be".
Something eternal inside ourselves is real eternally, beyond space and time.
It's the unknowable. Find out. Find out how limited and primitive most of humans are keeping to be.
Last edited by Shion on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:05 pm

Shion wrote: Hahaha, come on Ninjin give yourself a break.
You start from the presumption that you are already a box.
What can you see then, but a box ?
Such affirmation doesn't help but to stay in Ninjin's presumption. Eventually one wants to solely look and discover.
It's no different than the everything is one or everything is nothingness. I just call it a box instead.
9 out of 10 people don't change in face of death.
Do such numbers matter to you ??
What if it doesn't matter to anybody in this thread ? :wink:
[/quote]
That was the introduction to where I think the egocentric behaviour of most people come from. It was a reply to the other guys standpoint. And if it doesn't matter so what. They can just ignore it.
Wow, is that your experience ??
What about admitting yourself that you don't know nothing about it and what you wrote is completely doubtful by you.
The sense of self is located in the brain if you remove it you turn into a vegetable. So stating loosing the self is not really accurate from a logical standpoint. and we ain't using buddhist terminology here.
Now, what's your next belief ? That instead you know ? Are you 100% sure in your heart ?
Or you don't know ?
Does your mind have a problem now ?
Don't care ! It's mind, illusion, the game of maya :wink:
Whats my belief? How can my mind have a problem. I am my mind. The I originates in the mind. Shoot me in the head and the I is removed and also the sense of self.

ninjin

Post by ninjin » Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:12 pm

Shion wrote: That's why we too are unreal, everything. Mind, perceptions, memories, our story.
Still there is a feeling of awareness, of knowing.
We can feel that it is impossible to cease to "be".
Something eternal inside ourselves is real eternally, beyond space and time.
It's the unknowable. Find out.
What is happening now happened a second ago. So there is no now.
Nothing inside us is real eternally. Since only nothing is eternal. Only that which was before the universe came to existence and that which will be after it has seized to exist is eternal.
There is no inside or outside or center for that matter.

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Seancho
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Post by Seancho » Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:44 am

ninjin wrote: Hmm I come from a place of barely "suffered" at all. It's all life in my opinion. Never really seen a good definition of suffering.
Thats easy. Suffering is the belief that you have no choice but to be something that you cannot be.

or more simply,

Suffering is to be hopelessly lost.
If you stop believing in fear, is it still scary?

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Post by Webwanderer » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:08 am

Suffering is the emotional pain experienced as a result of blind judgments and beliefs, that certain conditions in life are wrong; and that one is a victim of of those conditions, which cannot be easily fixed, if at all.

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Post by kiki » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:29 am

Suffering is the baggage of emotional turmoil that is lugged around after a momentary experience has passed.

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