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Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:36 pm
by Agnieszka
Can you please try to help me?
Is there any possibility to dissociate from a very close relative (daughter) with self-destructive tendencies, who pushes away any help from me, whom I am not able to communicate with?
And most important: do I have the moral right to dissociate? - she is my daughter and I love her very much.
I've been living with this fear, very aware of it for a long time. And it's not becoming weaker. All other painbodies somehow dissipated or became less painful. This one is still active (she's pushing the right buttons since we are living together and I have to watch her do terrible things to herself).
Did anyone of you have similar life situation and managed to overcome it according to ET's teachings? I'm using his portals but it isn't any better. Maybe because my ego keeps saying that I'm her mother and something MUST BE DONE?
Thank you all.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:00 am
by Webwanderer

Narz provided this link to the Option institute. As I mentioned on his thread in "Spiritual Teachers" I have been to the institute for a week long intensive, so I can personally vouch for its value. It's not quite Tolle teachings of Now awareness, but it is not contradictory either. It is a process of discovery and unravelling of ones beliefs about specific issues that they may be seen and released. You can pick up a variety of books on the subject written by Bears Kaufman to get a better feel for the approach.

If you have a strong connection with a loved one like your daughter, it may not be so easy just to let go as they self destruct before you eyes. You may find The Kaufman's approach quite helpful.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:58 am
by Agnieszka
Thank you Web,

I already asked online about the Institute's free audio CD.
Since the fear I feel almost consumes me now (I can't feel any space like I always do when dealing with other painbodies) and I cannot sleep nor act, I decided to turn to a doctor for some chemical help - ironically, it's me saying this, who always dissuaded everybody from using tranquilizers on this forum numerous times! Maybe it's a mistake but I feel that without tranquilizers I will not be able to be of any help to my daughter. It's also kind of confirmation for me that sometimes, when dealing with abnormalities, even the best spiritual development techniques can be of no use.
Thank you.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:19 pm
by BrahmanEternal
When you accept the situation as it is you will naturally know what to do, you will have access to intuition, your reaction will
not be charged with negativity which attracts just more of negativity. Surrender is not giving up, you only give up negativity.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:28 am
by Agnieszka
Thank you, BrahmanEternal :) ,
that's exactly what I'm trying to do. But it's sort of difficult to maintain the state of acceptance in this case. When accepting her current state, the Now as it is, my thoughts keep going to the future which I see in black colors usually. I bring them back, to the now, they go again to the future, I bring them back, etc. When they come, and it's happening all the time, it immediately brings about a strong emotional reaction in my body. When I don't forcefully bring them back, I become paralysed by fear. As a result, I stop sleeping, eating and, which is most important, all my reactions stem from fear. I feel this fear somehow belongs to us both and one of us has to be the first to... well, get rid of it or accept it. ET, who helped me a lot to this day, says that we shouldn't fight anything, I try not to fight the fear but learn to live with it, by observing it, etc. But that's really hard this time!
I have also come back to an old book by Dalai Lama "The Art of Happiness", where he says: "... if you spend some time thinking about old age, death, and these other unfortunate things, your mind will be much more stable when these things happen as you have already become acquainted with these problems and kinds of suffering and have anticipated that they will occur." He's talking about preparing for our own old age, death, etc., but in my case it couldn't mean that I should start to think about worst possibilities regarding my daughter just to be preapred?!
It's really a dark time for me, since the fear appeared a month ago when I was robbed, then I got sick, my mother's serious family problems worsened, my father had two heart attacks (that's only a part of it :D ) and then the troubles with my daughter reappeared. Interesting time. I'm trying to be a good daughter, a good mother, and a good wife all the time. I'm thinking about coming back to tranquilizers, because I feel I won't be able to cope with it all with no support. At the same time, I don't want to lose what I have accomplished until now - the ability to maintain the higher perspective and some degree of presence which accompanied me more and more until that day a month ago. Tranquilizers will result in, IMO, a halt or at least slowdown in this "process". That's my ego speaking probably. I'm also aware that I may become, once again, dependent on tranquilizers, and it's going to be a total failure, because I put a great effort into getting rid of the addiction four years ago.
Your advice and help will be most welcome.
Thank you again!

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:39 am
by BrahmanEternal
Agneska as you know when Dalai Lama said that he meant that thinking about surrender and preparing for surrender is a good thing, you are caught in a story and how could you not be, it is your daughter, it is your flesh and blood, you watched her grow and she gave you great joy, how could you not identify? How could that saint not be identified with his life being taken away in horrible pain on the cross? But he was not identified, he just smiled, the challenges may vary with the perception of loss but we always have a choice to enter that portal into our essence.... and then do the right action from that position of surrender.

I know from my stories how hard can this be, so i suggest you to approach this problem from other angles, how about a good cry, it always helps me in numerous ways, how about a good rage at the boxing bag, how about a good walk in nature turns my creativity on always, go out just dont let the negativity overwhelm you, talking about it on the forum is a great thing to do.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:58 am
by weopposedeception
Stay away from benzodiazepines (xanax, valium, klonopin,ativan). Horrendous addiction problem. Google benzobusters.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:52 am
by Agnieszka
Thanks weoppose,
I know it too well since I was addicted to Xanax :evil:
I will look for something else plus try to find some therapist-buddhist, this particular painbody is too strong to cope without any outside support.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:05 am
by Vpopov81
How old is your daughter. She needs probably to see a competant therapist, perhaps a good one with spiritual background. Can you elaborate on her situation? Meds wont do anything but quelch the problem short term.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:00 am
by Agnieszka
Well, Vpopov81, she is almost 22! And declines any help, especially from me, who, as she says, "doesn't help her but worries only". She's right because worry is the only thing that's left after many attempts to help I made. I decided to leave her alone and that's exactly what she wants from me now. It's hard but doable. I'll start to work with my own fears. Is it immoral?
I don't know.
Thank you very much.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:57 pm
by Ives
Agnieszka wrote: ... do I have the moral right to dissociate?
Agnieszka wrote: Is it immoral?
Do I have the moral right to dissociate?

Examine that statement.
What does it mean to dissociate?
Where is this sense of morality coming from?

Is that not your own pain body manifesting in a sense of guilt?

Maybe, just maybe, the best thing at this point in time (and isn’t that what you want?) is as you suggested to just let her be.
So if we can agree that letting her be is the best thing to do right now, where exactly is the problem?

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:43 pm
by Agnieszka
:D the real, huge problem is in my own ego which doesn't want to let her go, to live her own life and do it her way .
It's better now, still without any tranquilizers, I see her alternately as separate from me (with some indifference), then as blended with my ego and that's when I feel I understand her well - it's as if both our painbodies merged or as if they were just one painbody - fear.
I don't talk about her "problems" anymore ("Mom, I was always a problem for you! Anything I did was somehow weird or not right!! Let me experience and go my own path, even if it seems 'bad' for you!" - her words), just everyday "technical" stuff, when we see each other and it feels better.
This crisis has shown me that I struggle with other beings' suffering, I clang to the task of "liberating" all that suffer, that it's a must for me to help and that THEY MUST STOP SUFFERING :) - it's my STORY.

the problem is his not mine

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:27 pm
by weichen
Can you please try to help me?
Is there any possibility to dissociate from a very close relative (daughter) with self-destructive tendencies, who pushes away any help from me, whom I am not able to communicate with?
And most important: do I have the moral right to dissociate? - she is my daughter and I love her very much.

Whenever I see myself in a difficult situation, I say "the problem is his, not mine". In my head, there is an image of a litle me (weichen) in the middle, and a guiding angel on the upper right corner. I am the guiding angel. I am watching (trying to suppress laughter) how weichen deal with this situation. Most often weichen does not know what to do after my sense of identity dissociate from it, but he has no anxiety at all.

So the core issue is dissociate from little me and ascend to the deathless being (guiding angel), and then the problem will vaporize. every moment is perfect as it is. Solution to the problem will spontaneously arise, magic will happen, return the sense of identity back to little me (weichen), happily receive, there is nothing need to be done, just happily receive.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:37 pm
by Vpopov81
Ya at 22 not only is it moral but it is her right as a human being to solve her own problems. Unless she is trying to kill herself or harm someone else, let life do its thing.

Re: dissociation-immoral?

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:55 am
by Suzanne
Agnieszka wrote:
a month ago when I was robbed, then I got sick, my mother's serious family problems worsened, my father had two heart attacks (that's only a part of it :D ) and then the troubles with my daughter reappeared...

it's going to be a total failure,
Dear Agnieszka,

I'd like to say that you'll need more help than this message board can give you. You should be speaking with a licenced professional therapist weekly until you can start sleeping and eating.

Having said that, we here cannot know how serious these things are, except for the 2 heart attacks. For instance, what does '"hurting herself" mean? Did she attempt suicide? If so, have her committed. Done. Get professional help and listen to their advice. How sick were you? Are your mother's serious family problems really worth you getting addicted to a drug? A professional can react responsibly when you sit down and discuss the specifics and details. My guess is some of this might need your action, and some should be dropped and ignored. Freaking out about it isn't helping anyone.

Your statement about being a good mother/daughter/wife is telling. I think your daughter's problems are catching you feeling like a failure in your role as daughter, mother, wife. That's what's keeping you up at night, not fear about your daughter. It's the fear that you are not appearing to be adquate in your roles that you have identified with. Most of us have to watch our parents age and sicken and eventually die, and we do it without drugs. It doesn't devestate us. We cry together and we hurt but we don't come apart at the seams.

I also think your statement that your ego is part of your daughter's and that you don't want to let her go is the money phrase. It's possible that your daughter is going to these extremes precicely because you refuse to see her as an individual. But only a responsible therapist can tell you that with any authority.

In any case, you're no good to her drugged. Your primary responsibility to everyone in this story is to calm down, let go of all of this hysteria and just live your life. Period. Don't try to live everyone else's. Just yours. You've got boundary issues.

If you didn't have boundary issues you'd see that there is alot of middle ground between total ego emeshment and complete abandonment. You need to accept your daughter, love her, be available to her, and stop obscessing about her future.