Awakening

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Leon
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Re: Awakening

Post by Leon » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:04 pm

I read "Awakening" with great appreciation for the beauty of the sentiments and the language. I must, however, reply with a problem.

I have benefited enormously from Eckhart Tolle's teachings. I have learned how, though imperfectly, to fight off painful thinking about past experiences and concentrate upon the NOW. I cannot, however, follow Eckhart beyond that point.

So many of the respondents report experiencing contact with "Being" and enjoy peace, love and joy. This I cannot do in spite of my best efforts.

I believe the problem lies in my lifelong agnosticism. To believe in the existence of a "Being" or "God" requires a suspension of an agnostic's skepticism, in fact a religious conversion. This I cannot accomplish.

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions to help me overcome this problem.
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Re: Awakening

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:19 pm

Hello Leon -- welcome back!
To believe in the existence of a "Being" or "God" requires a suspension of an agnostic's skepticism, in fact a religious conversion.
Do you believe in gravity? Assuming for the rest of this comment that you do, it is that kind of belief that is "required." It is the belief that comes exclusively and solely from your personal direct experience. In fact, Leon, your suspicion of manufactured beliefs in thought-systems is a great strength. It enables you to question the "truths" that emerge from the minds of men and women, and explanatory thought systems. Do remember that we are stuck, in this forum, with the English language...robust as it is, it fails to provide the perfect word to describe the experience of Self-realization. They are but shabby faint pointers to the experience of unity consciousness. Agnosticism itself is a belief, by the way. "I firmly declare that I will remain skeptical of all beliefs (except my firm skepticism :) ). Disbelief as a construct is no more correct than belief. They are both egoic "positions."

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Awakening

Post by karmarider » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:36 pm

There are no pre-requisites. It's not a matter of belief or disbelief, it goes beyond that, or is something prior to that. Passive watchfulness and Release.

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kiki
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Re: Awakening

Post by kiki » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:06 pm

This I cannot do in spite of my best efforts.
There are no efforts involved in Being. "You" already are, you are being. Don't you know that you are - does it need thinking or belief to know this? Remember, being cannot be objectified, so don't look for a specific "thing" - being just IS. This "is-ness" of being is obvious, but people look to the mind to find it, but it will never be found there.
I believe the problem lies in my lifelong agnosticism. To believe in the existence of a "Being" or "God" requires a suspension of an agnostic's skepticism, in fact a religious conversion. This I cannot accomplish.
Notice how belief and skepticism are getting in the way of what is already obvious - that "you" are. Both belief and skepticism are activities of the mind. It takes no mental gymnastics or beliefs for what is called "being" to arise. It's here right now, right here! It doesn't even arise because it never was not here - it is ever present. Just stop everything else and let awareness reveal itself to itself.

This is so much simpler than people make it out to be because they usually rely on something happening in the mind. What you are is utter simplicity; people miss that simplicity because they muck it up with all sorts of practices and techniques. Drop it all and being will be recognized - not by the ego or mind, but by being itself. It is self-evident when mind is not blocking its obvious presence.

Maybe it would help you see this if you forget about the word "being" because it has contaminated notions associated with it. Instead, feel is-ness. Does "is" carry prejudiced ideas with it? Isn't it true that "is" is here, right here, right now? Can't everyone, regardless of religious affiliation or non-affiliation or philosophical background feel that simple "IS-ness", that is-ness that exists as the true core of what they are? Isn't that obvious? Isn't it obvious that this is universally true for everyone? No doing needed for that - just a noticing that you are/is. Is-ness has no identifiable objective qualities that the mind can get its tentacles into - how could it be turned into an object? It can't, but it can be noticed. And since "is" implies now, and now is always here, it cannot be lost or even found - only real-ized to exist in the immediacy of the present moment, the eternal now.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Webwanderer
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Re: Awakening

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:21 am

Leon, if you must believe in something, believe in truth. Be willing to accept truth whatever it may be. Getting beyond agnosticism may come down to whether or not the essence of what we are - consciousness - transcends the physical form. If indeed it does, then what is its origin? We don't have to answer this question with definity to recognize it is something beyond the material world we live in. At minimum it opens up possibilities that material science cannot answer with anything close to certainty. If you listen to those who try, they sound as much like a religious philosophy as Christians, Jews or Muslims. Seek out your true nature. Not so much by reading books and listening to seminars (although they can offer some useful pointers), but rather in silent awareness where direct recognition of being can be realized. Be patient and have no expectations, just explore being alive in this moment without distraction of thought.

WW

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Re: Awakening

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:08 am

Leon -

Kiki and WW talk about the most fundamental truth of your life. Existence. That is so boring to the mind that it skips it. How could "is-ness" be the ultimate truth? A rock has "is-ness." 'Big deal' says the mind.

But perhaps your skepticism can be a portal. You are going to reject anything that smacks of dogma, liturgy or belief. That is a huge step toward waking up. You will not be looking for a mental construct, a belief system, or anything really. And "not looking," even reflexive "not looking" as a perpetual agnostic, relieves you of the many detours and frustrations of "seeking" the experience of "Being."

However, the ego/mind is still an obstacle. You are invested in the merits of agnosticism. Does your "non-belief" extend to epiphanies? Is your agnostic watchdog ready to pounce on each and every possibility of transcendence? Well, then maybe you need to not only suspend belief, but to suspend disbelief....

It is certain that enlightenment is nonmental. Other experiences are also nonmental...breathing, beating heart, sweating, instant compassion, loving beautiful music, diving into a freshwater lake, hearing a loon, orgasms, many others, including awakening.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Leon
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Re: Awakening

Post by Leon » Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:28 pm

To: Sighclone, karmarider, kiki, Webwanderer (Hope I didn't miss anyone):

Thank you, thank you one and all for your full, insightful, and well expressed comments to my problem I posed regarding "Awakening".
I have printed out all your comments and read them repeatedly.

The common thread I detect running through all of your comments is that "self-realization" cannot be attained through thinking.
My agnosticism is as much a construct of the thinking mind as any religious belief, and thus must be abandoned if I want to experience "being" or "is-ness."

What I long for is an epiphany as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it: "a moment of sudden and great revelation or realization."
I believe your comments have pointed me along a path to obtain my wish.

Thanks again to you all,

Leon
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Re: Awakening

Post by Sighclone » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:34 am

Leon -

Welcome as a seeker. :) . One giant epiphany may not be your reward. You may have momentary experiences of unity consciousness, starting today. they may be of varying intensities and duration. There are several formal "paths" to awakening (advaita, Zen, Dzogchen, others...) Because we write here and you read here, books may help in some way. Many of us like the phrasings used by Adyashanti (adyashanti.org)to facilitate your journey. Many people use a meditation technique at some point to kick-start the process. kiki has written many helpful pointers here through the years - a search of his posts might be fruitful. I for one wish you well - you have a head start!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Awakening

Post by student2u » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:31 am

Hi everyone,

This is such a wonderful thread and it feels so “REAL” like a community when I read all your posts –real individuals on the same journey to enlightenment - some with questions and confusions; and some with patience and helpful guidance…

Maybe because I’m also at the initial stage of being awakened, I noticed that nobody mentioned (or did I miss?) “BEFORE YOU ENTER THE BODY, FORGIVE” (page 119, PON) because emotions (anger, fear, grief, etc) can prevent us “from gaining access to the inner body, which lies at a deeper level underneath it” if we just ignore the emotions…"Attention does not mean that you start thinking about it. It means to just observe the emotion, to feel it fully, and so to acknowledge and accept it as it is..."
page 120-121, PON
“Forgiveness is to relinquish your grievance and so to let go of grief. It happens naturally once you realize that your grievance serves no purpose except to strengthen a false sense of self. Forgiveness is to offer no resistance to life – to allow life to live through you…

The moment you truly forgive, you have reclaimed your power from the mind. Nonforgiveness is the very nature of the mind…”
I found this very helpful to me. It helps remove the burden and distractions so I can be more available for being present…

Thanks again to Webwanderer and all of you for this wonderful thread – it helps me in many ways, too. The four steps described in the first post are most helpful to me and I find myself in each step at the same time sometimes (if that's possible?).

Webwanderer mentioned, “To be present is the simplest thing. It is your natural state.” I believe it must be that simple for someone who is already there while it may not be so simple when our minds are still obscured or deeply conditioned…However, the good news is we are heading in the right direction :D
The Truth is revealed when the mind is completely out of the way...

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Re: Awakening

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:59 am

student2u wrote:
page 120-121, PON
“Forgiveness is to relinquish your grievance and so to let go of grief. It happens naturally once you realize that your grievance serves no purpose except to strengthen a false sense of self. Forgiveness is to offer no resistance to life – to allow life to live through you…

The moment you truly forgive, you have reclaimed your power from the mind. Nonforgiveness is the very nature of the mind…”
I found this very helpful to me. It helps remove the burden and distractions so I can be more available for being present…

Thanks again to Webwanderer and all of you for this wonderful thread – it helps me in many ways, too. The four steps described in the first post are most helpful to me and I find myself in each step at the same time sometimes (if that's possible?).

Webwanderer mentioned, “To be present is the simplest thing. It is your natural state.” I believe it must be that simple for someone who is already there while it may not be so simple when our minds are still obscured or deeply conditioned…However, the good news is we are heading in the right direction :D
That is an excellent quote you cite student2u. Thanks for the reminder of its power to free.

Presence is indeed the simplest thing, but that does not necessarily mean it's easy. It is what it is. Accept that as a fundamental precept of life and maybe it won't be quite as difficult as it might.

WW

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Re: Awakening

Post by student2u » Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:41 pm

The fourth step is to come into alignment with the universal laws of life. If you are to awaken fully, it is necessary to live in integrity in every aspect of your life.
I finally realize/know what this "means" or "implies" ...

It's so beautiful... :D
The Truth is revealed when the mind is completely out of the way...

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Re: Awakening

Post by kodeone » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:16 am

For most of us, we have become so habituated to thinking, that now thoughts never end. They have a life of their own. We are not even choosing to think. Thinking is happening all by itself and we are simply pulled from one thought to another, never really experiencing the sacredness of this moment.
A very nice post.
Regarding thoughts and your comment here.
They dont stop no, and probably never will.Yes they do seem to have a life of there own.
However they are witnessed in presence, but by no-one.
Who will be the witness to the sacredness of the present moment ?

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Re: Awakening

Post by Sighclone » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:57 am

Welcome Code one! It's always a pleasure to welcome new members who arrive with bits of wisdom. Yes, it's true for most that thinking does not end, but gets a little space to operate in. The "off switch" has been located, too. I believe that there is a big shift and then a deepening over time during which the whole mind thing loses command over our Presence even more. The Witness is also a stage (if there is a witness and a "something witnessed" then there is duality.) But it is a huge step away from unconsciousness.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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kodeone
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Re: Awakening

Post by kodeone » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:29 pm

Sighclone wrote:Welcome Code one! It's always a pleasure to welcome new members who arrive with bits of wisdom. Yes, it's true for most that thinking does not end, but gets a little space to operate in. The "off switch" has been located, too. I believe that there is a big shift and then a deepening over time during which the whole mind thing loses command over our Presence even more. The Witness is also a stage (if there is a witness and a "something witnessed" then there is duality.) But it is a huge step away from unconsciousness.

Andy
Thanks, glad to be here.

As far as a big shift and a deepening, i would have to add that the deepening is more of a lessening, less and less time identified with thoughts and more time spent AS presence, not IN presence as that would suggest a person being present, and as we know the person is a thought construct itself.
There never has been a person being present.The person/mind made self is witnessed by no-one, or pure awareness itself (our true nature).

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Re: Awakening

Post by Sighclone » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:43 pm

Now kode, newbies are not supposed to understand those subtleties. How can we wear our regal mantle as moderators when upstarts arrive with distinctions between "as" and "in" :D

Of course that is true -- "in" implies something which is "in" something. One thing that happens here is that there are pointers for beginners (most of the wonderful Eckhart) and refinements which can be confusing and challenging for newbies. The death of the 'little me' is naturally going to be unnerving for those whose identity has been wrapped up in their great big mind. But Eckhart has some hidden gems, too, for more advanced folks. One of my favorites occurred in October 2007 on a videotaped radio interview with Oprah. He said simply: "You are the present moment." Not "dwell in the cosmic bliss of the present moment" or something like that. He encourages us to ask "what is your relationship with the present moment." Well, that's fine, but it is a big leap from there to "you are the present moment." Because if you are the present moment, then you are not Andy or kode or Larry or....

And if you are not a person, then, of course, this is all "mumbo-jumbo" which is what the New York Times said in their review of "Power of Now" ten years ago.

I find I kind of like mumbo-jumbo, and that most everything else is "poobah."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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