Awakening

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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:20 am

When we are in the world of the thinking mind, we are somewhere in the remembered past or the imagined future. We are in a world of thought, memory, concept, idea, opinion and belief. We are not here now. What we are experiencing is not the truth and reality of the present moment.


That is wrong. Though these sentences might help to get into the state of feeling yourself more intensively, they are ultimately not pointing to the real truth. It is impossible to experience something else than the now. Otherwise, the person who is NOW completely identified wouldn't be identified with his thoughts. Whatever I experience, I am in the Now. It is impossible to lose that state of the now. That's why thoughts, identification with thoughts and the imagined past and future are completely a part of the power of now. The power of now isn't somewhere else and we are our thoughts ulimately. Though that is not helpful to say, (it is more helpful to say that we are not our thoughts because we can then let go from identification) it is however true, because All is one, all is energy, and thoughts are energy, so if I am energy I am also my thoughts.

IF you are free from thoughts, you are not "more" in the now. Everyone is at the same level in the now. The only difference is, if our mind is able to give something else than thoughts attention or if it is not. And remember: our mind is insane, because thoughts are drugs and no living beings experiences more of them than we do. Everyone is imagining his self in the head all the time, but that so-called "self" IS NOT really a problem because it doesn't exist ulimately. It just means that you think and think and think, without the possiblity of feeling much of something else.

Ultimately no concept of enlightenment points to a reality that really exists. Or in other words: there is no enlightenment. A person that is free from thoughts is not "more enlightened" than another person and a comepletely with thoughts identified person is not "less enlightened" than the so called "spiritual" people who believe to be better than unspiritual persons. The concept of enlightenment says that a enlightened person has stopped in having a false identity. But no one has a false identity. We may use it as an excuse("I am unhappy because I have the ego"), but their is no ego. All of those concepts were only made in trying to help you to let go from identification. Only this purpose is important, as this is at least the only real truth you experience while perceiving those concepts. Nothing else matters at all, as all of these concepts including my whole text are at least wrong. Only that I have thought them and the purposes which made me writing them are important.

I am not knowing from where I have those thoughts. I am ultimately a person who had some years ago the idea, I might be able to solve my problems through reading those special books. No one I knew had such belief systems, as they were in the books I read. No one I knew behaved as it was told to be necessary to behave, if you want to be happy. I thought all others may just not be smart enough to read those and so it may be my exclusivity to feel better than the others. It may be a way of solving my problems, that is what I thought. But that is Bullshit. And that is why I don't feel better. It is impossible to solve my problems and no one ever could. I unfortunately wasn't able to put attention into something else than thoughts nearly all the time I can remind. And the reason is not spectacular: I just believed the way of "feeling better through reaching a goal with thinking" to be the best if I want to feel better one day.

What I actually want to say is, that if Eckhart dies, no one has lost anything at least. I anticipate the strong negative emotions I might trigger with saying this, but if that is the case at your conciousness, it means that you are trying to skill your character, by defending so-called "others" you identified with. No one should BELIEVE what is said in all those spiritual books as every claim there is written has at least nothing to do with the reality.


Namaste :mrgreen:
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Re: Awakening

Postby snowheight » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:06 am

tenderboy wrote:The power of now isn't somewhere else and we are our thoughts ulimately. Though that is not helpful to say, (it is more helpful to say that we are not our thoughts because we can then let go from identification) it is however true, because All is one, all is energy, and thoughts are energy, so if I am energy I am also my thoughts.


tb,

Then if I follow your logic, what would you say to a modification of the pointer to read: "You are not only your thoughts" ... ?

Lots of energy in your post. Good thing to express all that ... but don't just burn part of the house down, go all the way. Why be satisfied with the concept that "All is one, all is energy" and the logical fallacies that derive from it?

Don't get attached to my words. They are only stepping stones to be left behind as soon as possible

-- Eckart Tolle, end of paragraph 23, intro to The Power of Now
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Awakening

Postby ashley72 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:34 am

Although concepts cannot describe reality they can point to it. A pointer is an invitation to see directly between the object and Reality. In this case "remembered past" & "imagined future" are both "mental" objects. Because this concept is negating the reality of these "mental" objects it is true, but it is not a description of Reality. A true concept can be a useful pointer to Reality. Therefore IMO, it is not "wrong" if used as a pointer, but untrue if used as a description of Reality.
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Re: Awakening

Postby snowheight » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:38 pm

ashley72 wrote:Although concepts cannot describe reality they can point to it. A pointer is an invitation to see directly between the object and Reality. In this case "remembered past" & "imagined future" are both "mental" objects. Because this concept is negating the reality of these "mental" objects it is true, but it is not a description of Reality. A true concept can be a useful pointer to Reality. Therefore IMO, it is not "wrong" if used as a pointer, but untrue if used as a description of Reality.


Be still with the pointer or let it melt away ... burn it down. From my experience, the mind is likely to dull it if it tries to use it to draw logical inferences and conclusions. The exception to this is perhaps when the mind approaches contemplation from a perspective of humility, knowing of the limitation in advance. Of course, this being said, if there are any minds that might not be quite aware of the limit then perhaps they just need to dance a bit. :D
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:07 pm

Interesting. No one of you did attack me, although I wrote sentences that are in my view dangerous to say. Identified people might be hurt and therefore attack me back. Is no one of you identified with Eckhart or with what he says?

Can we say as a conclusion, that at least, all that matters is the relation between author and reader beyond these words and concepts? Because I have the feeling that at least the other person himself is the real helpful energy for me. That would explain it to me why it feels like that it often doesn't matter which words the person says, but how the person says them. For example sometimes I hate a person very much, and others don't understand why. They then say: "What is your problem? She didn't say anything fatally". People in my world seem not to understand that the real realtionship, the only one that matters, is beyond those thoughts and concepts.

I think Eckhart uses words only because it is impossible to communicate with identified people in any other way.
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Re: Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:05 pm

tb -

... I might be able to solve my problems ...


There is a theme in much of your writing. It has to do with your "problems." One of the values of this forum is helping people with problems. I was certainly helped a few years ago. Utterly changed my life by giving me a point of reference for some events which had been going on for over 30 years. And I made some friends.

Of course we would not attack you for negative comments about Eckhart Tolle. They were expressed authentically, well-argued and clear, and not malicious. No one here is "stuck" on the perspective of ET.

There are deeper resources in the forum than are immediately visible on the surface. If you are interested, and able, perhaps you could discuss your problems with us. Many others have, and there is the anonymity of screen names and so forth...no real risk. Or you could PM folks.

Be well,

Namaste,

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:34 pm

Sighclone wrote:tb -

... I might be able to solve my problems ...


There is a theme in much of your writing. It has to do with your "problems." One of the values of this forum is helping people with problems. I was certainly helped a few years ago. Utterly changed my life by giving me a point of reference for some events which had been going on for over 30 years. And I made some friends.

Of course we would not attack you for negative comments about Eckhart Tolle. They were expressed authentically, well-argued and clear, and not malicious. No one here is "stuck" on the perspective of ET.

There are deeper resources in the forum than are immediately visible on the surface. If you are interested, and able, perhaps you could discuss your problems with us. Many others have, and there is the anonymity of screen names and so forth...no real risk. Or you could PM folks.

Be well,

Namaste,

Andy


You are unbelievably friendly. You know if it would have been a normal mistake, I might have forgiven me but that one is too bad. I am condemned to live with this. Halleluja :cry:
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Re: Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:01 pm

tb -

You know if it would have been a normal mistake, I might have forgiven me but that one is too bad. I am condemned to live with this.


We don't know what "this" is. But we do know that you have judged it. Share with us, if you will, some parameters of that judgement. Let's see how real it is. Be ready, tb...because we are going to expose your judgement to the Four Questions and a Turnaround of the mighty Byron Katie! :mrgreen:

Or, with your considerable reading, you could do that yourself. It appears that you are resistant to discussing it here. And I completely respect that. Completely. If you choose to try "The Work," check out her website thework dot com. Or buy a copy of "Loving What Is."

You do not have to live with anything that is a grinding personal negative judgement.......you can if you choose....but there is a release, also.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:25 pm

Sighclone wrote:tb -

You know if it would have been a normal mistake, I might have forgiven me but that one is too bad. I am condemned to live with this.


We don't know what "this" is. But we do know that you have judged it. Share with us, if you will, some parameters of that judgement. Let's see how real it is. Be ready, tb...because we are going to expose your judgement to the Four Questions and a Turnaround of the mighty Byron Katie! :mrgreen:

Or, with your considerable reading, you could do that yourself. It appears that you are resistant to discussing it here. And I completely respect that. Completely. If you choose to try "The Work," check out her website thework dot com. Or buy a copy of "Loving What Is."

You do not have to live with anything that is a grinding personal negative judgement.......you can if you choose....but there is a release, also.

Andy


LOL I read that one before and really "made" the Work. I mean I tried to honestly do it and it was a amazing experience. As I forgot it more or less it may be helpful to do it now again ;)
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:53 pm

I am such an asshole. That thought repeats and repeats while doing The Work. Ive done it now and in fact I've put my fears on my mother and gave her the guilt. I hate me now. How can I be so evil? She is hurted very much because of me. Shame on myself. I am so bad. I am fucked up just like the others are saying it. I believed to be a good person, how child-like^^.... I am shitty. I believed, that she is controlling me and that she is bad and that it is her fault that made me very angry. A little meditation with the work et voila: Its me. I hate it to say this because it makes my ego to believe worthless, but it is me who wants to be controlled from her. I am like a child. I am afraid of the world and hope that she makes it for me. I didnt grow up.

But no, I know that I am not fucked up and actually I feel good that I have reflected those things. I just wrote those thoughts because they truly arised. I actually felt worthful while thinking those thoughts, that i am a bad person, because i didn't identified with it. I mean the mind wants to controll things now, so that i can reach the point where I ever can recognize how it really is (skilling my ego^^) but glimpses of the now are very helpful to keep on being alive ;) But still, I am a monster. I really have hurted her. I really thought that my mother is worthless, just because Ive got no girlfriend (must hate myself for that). I am such an asshole and now I remind how she came towards me and she searched love and I only hurted her :cry: :cry: :cry: :oops: She really tried out and I didn't noticed because I only wanted to see her to be like i imagined it. I just hope now that she can forgive me again (though i know that i have to forgive myself first and that I may have hurted her so much that she may never be able to forgive me again and I would never holdi t against her. it would be okay for me now that if things turned out to be like that I would have to accept that now. I am now not demanding from her to behave like I want to)

LOL. Thats all fiction :D :D :D I remind now the last time the same success happened. Ive seen everything how it really is beyond thoughts but afterwards, just one day after when being in the next difficult situation everything was forgotten. Though this might happen now again, I know that it doesnt matter because there is now a little bit space. However I am nearly completely identified with thoughts at the moment and I will lose every glimpse of space soon. But someday, when I have grown up, I will be able to keep space and then I am a worthful person ;)
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Re: Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:02 am

How do you know your mother suffers? How do you know that she should not suffer? How do you know how much choice you had in making her suffer? Do you know if she had a part in that? Do you know for sure that her suffering may or may not be her only pathway to happiness?

There may be many, many things we do not know.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:13 pm

Sighclone wrote:How do you know your mother suffers? How do you know that she should not suffer? How do you know how much choice you had in making her suffer? Do you know if she had a part in that? Do you know for sure that her suffering may or may not be her only pathway to happiness?

There may be many, many things we do not know.

Andy


My Ego can't know, but my real identity does know ever. However it doesnt matter. I am fighting all that fight of getting enlightened only because of a simple idea. THe idea was: "I may solve my problems with all of those special books just if i try hard enough" and since i identified with that I tried as hard as I can since about 5 or 6 years. and that was just ever an obstacle i didn't got over of since a few days before as I recognized that fact. I just thought: "Hold on. Whats that background noise all the time?" And then I reminded the day where I decided to go the way of enlightenment, which was basically all of the time just identifying with the thoughts that arised through the books. I then gave up resistance for a few seconds.

That was amazing. So amazing that it didn't last long until I identified with that and thought "I am a great person". The same pattern is just repeating and repeating all the time :D Thats funny I am even laughing about it :D
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Re: Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:18 pm

"I am a great person"


To the extent that you are a person, that is true.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Awakening

Postby tenderboy » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:38 pm

Sighclone wrote:
"I am a great person"

To the extent that you are a person, that is true.


But not greater than others, right? And its not really satisfying to think something like that, if you can't feel it and believe it really to be.
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Re: Awakening

Postby Sighclone » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:57 pm

But not greater than others, right? And its not really satisfying to think something like that, if you can't feel it and believe it really to be.


Absolutely not greater than others. It is the comparing and striving for superiority that is the hallmark of ego-driven behavior and thought patterns. If "really satisfying" requires you to feel superior, and believe yourself to be superior, then you are going to have to work much harder to get there. And when you do, be sure to check in with yourself and see if you are happy. And if you are, you will have to get back on the horse to stay "happy" because the next rival, the next challenge is right around the corner. Lots of people live lives like that. Thoreau called them lives of "quiet desperation." One of Eckhart's main points is that those are lives based on an illusion. Those lives are the product of believing in a "false self," of unconsciously identifying with your mind and its stories.

But he does not say it is easy to escape. The neo-Advaitists do that. And they are wrong, in my opinion. My point in the earlier post was that to the extent you are a person (who is pretty much identified with egoic identity as self) you are a great person. I say that because one of the paradoxes of awakening is that you have to have a pretty healthy ego to dump it! There are many people who have psychological challenges that keep them spinning in circles, chasing their tail, grinding down complex thought-driven bunny trails, behaving badly, etc. who stumble across Eckhart and hope for release from years of deep conditioning by just being present. Usually those people actually need some cognitive counseling for personality issues before the deeper process of deconstructing the whole ego can take place.

PM me for a list of nondual-sensitive therapists if you like -- many work by Skype.


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