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Re: Awakening

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:54 am
by kodeone
I think its very important to word things correctly when speaking about the truth of reality especially if its supposed to be of some learning value to others.
How many people on this forum are still under the dillusion of "trying to be present" or, "i was present earler, now im not" ?
Your never not present, as eckhart said, you are presence itself, always.
Its great to clairify that as i would certainly have wanted that as a "noobie".

Re: Awakening

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:15 am
by kiki
Welcome to the board, kodeone - good input.
How many people on this forum are still under the dillusion of "trying to be present" or, "i was present earler, now im not" ?
Your never not present, as eckhart said, you are presence itself, always.
This point is something that many here point out repeatedly, but it's always nice to hear it again.
kiki

Re: Awakening

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:41 am
by arel
kodeone wrote: Your never not present, as eckhart said, you are presence itself, always.
Its great to clairify that as i would certainly have wanted that as a "noobie".
Where did he say this?

I would not word it in that way saying 'I'm never not present'. I'm often not present.
I am always conscious, I'd say that maybe (well how about sleep then... hmm). But not always present. Yes trying to be present is a person trying. Maybe that's way it is said it is a matter of grace.
I am present when I am self-aware, I'd define it that way.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:35 pm
by kodeone
arel wrote:
kodeone wrote: Your never not present, as eckhart said, you are presence itself, always.
Its great to clairify that as i would certainly have wanted that as a "noobie".
Where did he say this?

I would not word it in that way saying 'I'm never not present'. I'm often not present.
I am always conscious, I'd say that maybe (well how about sleep then... hmm). But not always present. Yes trying to be present is a person trying. Maybe that's way it is said it is a matter of grace.
I am present when I am self-aware, I'd define it that way.
He said it in an interview.
Thoughts arise in presence, the thought "i am not present" is presence itself.
There is nothing but presence, you cant ever not be present, try your best to move away from crystal clear presence, its impossible.
All you can manage is a thought saying im not present, haha, funny yes :) If you believe that thought, its pure presense buying into a thought of not present, but its still all appearing presently.
Theres just one singular block of existence with no seperation.It can be called presence, awareness or even the universe, a unified field of pure awareness, with no seperation at all.
No seperate individuals to be or not be it, everything is that.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:44 pm
by Tommy6084
I found this post to be quite helpful so I posted it in an anonymous discussion board at my school. I was curious to see if it would resonate positively with anyone who has not had previous experience with enlightenment before. I do go to a rather prestigious school, so identification with the mind is even more so than the average student. Here is one of the responses:

"Ok. This is enough. As a philosophy major and a decent human being, I have to tell you to shut the fuck up. This essay does not cohere. It is not substantive. It seems like a product of the worst kind of "I'm pretty high so ima write some shit" impulse. Let me be clear, here. You are not an enlightened being. You are not an intellectual force. Your half-baked musings will not garner respect from me or any reasonably intelligent person. You, sir, are the definition of douche-bag."

here is another

"Um Jesus never spoke of enlightenment, and Abraham was promissed a promise land and the mocre correct religion. Also the here and now is the here and now not some unbelievebale concoction of a stoned ass.
Read some zen and shut the fuck up. As poster one said, you are not enlightened and you are not an intellectual force. And I can certainly say you know nothing about oneness."

I want to share the wealth of enlightenment with others but i have been running into a lot of resistance. Has any one had much success in helping others get past their mind indentified states?

Re: Awakening

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:09 pm
by Ananda
Has any one had much success in helping others get past their mind indentified states?

Help yourself, get past 'others'.


What a delightful message board that is!

Re: Awakening

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:42 pm
by Sighclone
I graduated from Harvard, have two Master's degrees in subjects unrelated to each other and to my undergraduate major, have taught at all levels including college, elementary and industry.

I mention that not to sound egoic, but only to clarify that I have a lot of experience with intellectual egos.

Eckhart said in an Oprah webinar that he could never have had an awakening experience until he was 29-30. He said the ego is naturally too strong until that time. When an individual has a keen mind which has brought many awards, he or she has little interest in anything which threatens it, or supplants the structures which encourage its primacy. It is very interesting to hear the comments which focus on the inadequacies of the speaker rather than try to deconstruct the actual statement. Of course the rebuttals will not come from experience, but merely academic dismissals.

Awakening is nonmental. Until someone can give you an adequate and resonant understanding of what nonmental but valid experiences are, do not expect a warm reception.

Andy

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:47 am
by Ralph
..... in other words, do not disturb the dreamer especially if he/she does not want to be awakened.
When one awakens, it is clearly seen and understood why many are not interested.

So, Tommy, I recomend that you keep it to yourself otherwise you will get more of the same response you got. But , of course, this will not happen on this site. Here, we want to wake up. We had enough. So we welcome you and your input.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:14 am
by NoordZee
Tommy, thank you for sharing your experiences here. As Ralph said: Don't try to convert the world, otherwise you may get very upset over the many negative remarks you will get. Enlightened or not, I expect people to remain polite and tolerant in their responses. The examples you gave us tell me that a few individuals at this prestigious place of learning have a lot to learn about tolerance, love and understanding. They often feel insecure and simply lash out to the best of their ability, which in the examples does not constitute a high level response.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:25 am
by kiki
I want to share the wealth of enlightenment with others but i have been running into a lot of resistance. Has any one had much success in helping others get past their mind indentified states?
Doncha just love those who have the "intellectual force" that is so lacking in you? They are the true guardians of enlightenment! :wink: LOL! Seriously, choose wisely who you talk to about this because most people aren't interested in enlightenment - misunderstanding abounds when it comes to awakening, so don't waste your time with people who are so tightly bound to thinking. Instead, become firmly established in consciously abiding in your true nature, and then be alert to those who seem to have a hankering for something they aren't getting through conventional pursuits. Then step lightly, guiding them through your own direct experience of what enlightenment is. Trying to force this onto anyone will only invite ridicule and/or hostility. Success will come when the "student" is ready, and that is pretty much out of your hands, but when someone does show up your best teaching tool is your own presence and the insight you can share that is born out of that presence.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:19 am
by kodeone
Tommy6084 wrote:I found this post to be quite helpful so I posted it in an anonymous discussion board at my school. I was curious to see if it would resonate positively with anyone who has not had previous experience with enlightenment before. I do go to a rather prestigious school, so identification with the mind is even more so than the average student. Here is one of the responses:

"Ok. This is enough. As a philosophy major and a decent human being, I have to tell you to shut the fuck up. This essay does not cohere. It is not substantive. It seems like a product of the worst kind of "I'm pretty high so ima write some shit" impulse. Let me be clear, here. You are not an enlightened being. You are not an intellectual force. Your half-baked musings will not garner respect from me or any reasonably intelligent person. You, sir, are the definition of douche-bag."

here is another

"Um Jesus never spoke of enlightenment, and Abraham was promissed a promise land and the mocre correct religion. Also the here and now is the here and now not some unbelievebale concoction of a stoned ass.
Read some zen and shut the fuck up. As poster one said, you are not enlightened and you are not an intellectual force. And I can certainly say you know nothing about oneness."

I want to share the wealth of enlightenment with others but i have been running into a lot of resistance. Has any one had much success in helping others get past their mind indentified states?
As soon as you see through the myth of the seperate self, interest in helping others awaken will most likely fall away.
The reason being that in that seeing, everything is recognised as pure awareness SELF already and its usually a drive coming from the seperate self that wants to "wake up others".
The people who responded to your post are that already and it matters not wether they know it or not, its absolutely irrelevant.
Find yourself and all this rubbish will fall away spontaniously.
Who is the one who is bothered about these people waking up ?
FInd that one first.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:15 pm
by James
Tommy
Sounds like a good learning experience on your school forum, we don't know what will happen until we try. I like Ralph's comment about not waking the dreamer who is enjoying his dreams. I think most of us have found that It is usually best not to share truth with those that are not ready for it.

I am reminded once again of this passage from ANE page 306.
THE FREQUENCY-HOLDERS

"The outward movement into form does not express itself with equal intensity in all people.

Some feel a strong urge to build, create, become involved, achieve, make an impact upon the world.

If they are unconscious, their ego will, of course, take over and use the energy of the outgoing cycle for its own purposes.

This, however, also greatly reduces the flow of creative energy available to them and increasingly they need to rely on "efforting" to get what they want.

If they are conscious, those people in whom the outward movement is strong will be highly creative.

Others, after the natural expansion that comes with growing up has run its course, lead an outwardly unremarkable, seemingly more passive and relatively uneventful existence.

They are more inward looking by nature, and for them the outward movement into form is minimal.

They would rather return home than go out.

They have no desire to get strongly involved in or change the world.

If they have any ambitions, they usually don't go beyond finding something to do that gives them a degree of independence.

Some of them find it hard to fit into this world. Some are lucky enough to find a protective niche where they can lead a relatively sheltered life, a job that provides them with a regular income or a small business of their own.

Some may feel drawn toward living in a spiritual community or monastery. Others may become dropouts and live on the margins of a society they feel they have little in common with.

Some turn to drugs because they find living in this world too painful.

Others eventually become healers or spiritual teachers, that is to say, teachers of Being.

In past ages, they would probably have been called contemplatives.

There is no place for them, it seems, in our contemporary civilization. On the arising new earth, however, their role is just as vital as that of the creators, the doers, the reformers.

Their function is to anchor the frequency of the new consciousness on this planet. I call them the frequency-holders.

They are here to generate consciousness through the activities of daily life, through their interactions with others as well as through "just being."

In this way, they endow the seemingly insignificant with profound meaning.

Their task is to bring spacious stillness into this world by being absolutely present in whatever they do."

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:54 pm
by Glycine
You guys are amazing!
Going on as strong as ever!

Tommy6084: You can't force others to wake up, because you're fighting against yourself. Not only that you can't win, but you will increase suffering. Just observe and have fun.
If you feel compelled to poke others, tease them gently. For example, show them that their ideas are just assumptions. Some will want to discuss further, and some will turn their back.

Re: Awakening

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:32 pm
by Tommy6084
Thank you for your responses! I found it quite refreshing to hear words of kindness and wisdom, rather than the usual anger of an ego. However I may have some wisdom to offer. The overwhelming opinion seems to be that when someone is completely dominated by their mind it is not wise to show them the way towards enlightenment. However in my own experiences I have found this not to be the case. I have a brother and a father with extremely strong egos and I myself am no different when I let my mind take me over. When I say big egos I mean yelling, screaming and the occasional desire to fight. I am so fortunate to be in this situation because even the slightest bit of ego in myself will be drawn out full force when I am around them, which is all day as we work together and live together.

However, when I can feel my inner body fully and i am in the present moment with all of my being I can only see the pain in them and I do what the situation requires of me. I have found showing love and affection toward someone in this situation is the most effective way to bring out their awareness. Any opinion that can be challenged by the mind will only get lost in the argument and create more egoic resistance. After the argument is over each go about our business and it seems as if my involvement had no effect. Yet a few hours later or even the next day I can see peace within them. It is as if I somehow connected with their being, but it did not come out until they calmed down fully.

As for ego I have realized this: The bigger they are the harder they fall. When someone's ego is activated they are in the most intensely insecure place. This is when your love and compassion is needed the most. Yes it may not be pretty and you will most likely become the target for their wrath. However, when they see that their tantrum does not shake your being they will come to think of you as a foundation of support.

The more I put myself out there the more I learn how to work with an ego. Time can not be wasted and every one is ready to hear the truth. If E.T. :D had not shared his love with me I would still be in pain and would still be causing pain for others.

As we all know, the ego always sees itself in danger and others as a threat. In the case of my post on the anonymous discussion the first few posts were all made in anger. The most effective response seemed to be a lot of love and a little bit of concept.

So I say to you, don't write someone off as not ready to hear your words and don't be afraid to become the target of an ego, because it is the most effective time in my opinion to make a lasting impact. I think of it like this, if a child came up to you in the middle of the night afraid of nightmare would the most effective response be to avoid their ego and come back the next morning or to give them love and show them it is only a dream. If you do not share their fear of illusion, their fear is no match for your love. There is a great opportunity for growth when someone is angry or upset, the ego is showing its flaws and causing great its host pain. There is no better time to show the strength of being.

I would love to hear any thoughts or experiences you have had with a strong ego. I am still learning and I always looking for an opportunity to grow.

Lots of love,

Tommy

Re: Awakening

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:50 am
by Ralph
Hi Tommy, this is my opinion on how to deal with others concerning the topic of Awakening.

I know where you are going with this but to me it's pretty straight forward. When someone tells you shut the fuck up, that what you are saying is total garbage, then I recomend you simply do that. This is not a game of convincing. You can only talk about this stuff with others that resonate with this that you speak of. Believe me, you are in the extreme minority and they live in the world of the ego mind and if you tell them differently, they will make you come across as a lunatic because they have lots of company as they are in the extreme majority and, most of all, because you live in their world.
In truth, there is nothng to get and there is 'no other' and no 'you' but how many hear that. (paradox indeed). There is no harm to put it out there but I feel that you are better off to engage in a conversation only with those that show some interest only. How can you help someone who does not want help or does not see a problem with their identity of being a separate self. If you try to be an alarm clock to wake them up when they are comfortably sleeping , they can get very nasty as they have shown in your examples.

Yes, strong egos are hard to break but, in my opinion, they need to make the first move or at the very least , show some interest.

I, too, am interested in hearing other viewpoints .