This too shall pass.

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Vpopov81
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This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Once in Persia reigned a king,
Who upon a signet ring,
Carved a maxim strange and wise,
When held before his eyes,
Gave him counsel at a glance,
Fit for every change and chance:
Solemn words, and these were they:
“EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

Trains of camel through the sand
Brought him gems from Samarcand;
Fleets of galleys over the seas
Brought him pearls to rival these,
But he counted little gain,
Treasures of the mine or main;
“What is wealth?” the king would say,
“EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

Mid the pleasures of his court
At the zenith of their sport,
When the palms of all his guests
Burned with clapping at his jests,
Seated midst the figs and wine,
Said the king, “Ah, friends of mine.
Pleasure comes but not to stay,
“EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

Woman, fairest ever seen
Was the bride he crowned as queen,
Pillowed on the marriage-bed
Whispering to his soul, he said,
“Though no monarch ever pressed
Fairer bosom to his breast,
Mortal flesh is only clay!
“EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

Fighting on the furious field,
Once a javelin pierced his shield,
Soldiers with a loud lament
Bore him bleeding to his tortured side,
“Pain is hard to bear;” he cried.
“But with patience, day by day,
EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

viii
Towering in a public square
Forty cubits in this air,
And the king disguised, unknown,
Gazed upon his sculptured name.
And he pondered, “What is fame?”
“Fame is but a slow decay!
“EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”

Struck with palsy, sore and old,
Waiting at the gates of gold,
Said he with his dying breath
“Life is done, but what is Death?”
Then as answer to the king
Fell a sunbeam on his ring;
Showing by a heavenly ray.
EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”
—Theodore Tilton

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:17 am

Vpopov81 wrote: ...
EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”
—Theodore Tilton

So then, what is the poet speaking of? Is it our waiting for death, that will pass away?
Or, is it our final moments of life that pass away? Or, is it death itself that vanishes?

Let's say that it is "death" that will pass away -- what might that mean for us?

What if we venture beyond the Christian's St. Paul, and his teachings, to the ultimate
possibility -- that all death is vanquished -- that the grave has no victory....

... because there is nothing in the grave -- no-thing left to die.

When death passes away, leaving no opposite in its wake;
what remains is not eternal life.

What remains is the Source of life and death;
And that cannot pass away.

... because it is not.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:37 am

He is pointing to the transience of all things. Everything passes away.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:32 am

Vpopov81 wrote:He is pointing to the transience of all things. Everything passes away.

Yes -- I gathered that.

I was more interested in the final lines of the poem -- and with the
implicit understanding of the fact, that even "passing away" will
eventually end.

Assuming, of course, that it has not already ended, and that even
transience is a misleading, temporal conclusion.

If all things are transient, then what gives rise to those things? --
and is their Source also transient?

I'm not sure just how far the poet intended us to ponder that theme.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:13 am

mindstuff..

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:19 pm

Vpopov81 wrote: mindstuff..
Perhaps so -- perhaps so.

But, if our consideration of life and death is mere "mindstuff,"
then perhaps so are our on-line postings of poetry on transience,
as well as our respective reflections upon such poetry.

So, our alternative to all this "mindstuff" is ______________

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:20 am

Mind is a tool but its not ultimate tool, there is much beyond what mind can understand.
In ancient Yoga tradition its known that there are multiple levels of understanding and relating to reallity, prana plane as first, then goes astral plane and mental plane, astral and
mental are cognitive functions and emotions, but beyond this there is known vajra plane that is accessible
to saints, but this is also not the last plane, this is hard for someones ego to accept but there is even higher plane then this,
beyond vajra, we are limited, but we can accept it.
Free of need to be Free.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:56 am

BrahmanEternal wrote:Mind is a tool but its not ultimate tool, there is much beyond what mind can understand.
In ancient Yoga tradition its known that there are multiple levels of understanding and relating to reallity, prana plane as first, then goes astral plane and mental plane, astral and
mental are cognitive functions and emotions, but beyond this there is known vajra plane that is accessible
to saints, but this is also not the last plane, this is hard for someones ego to accept but there is even higher plane then this,
beyond vajra, we are limited, but we can accept it.

Yes. That is certainly one way of saying what IS...

And, when all such "planes" are transcended -- and all has "passed"
(in the words of the poet) -- what then should we recall of the little
child next-door, whose parents abused her and who lingered long
at death's door, within easy reach of our unhelping hands?

I am re-reading the poem, pondering such implications.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:59 am

Look, i know you may be pondering over this classic existential question that troubles everybody, but seriously nobody helped me when it was tough and i asked many people, should i cry how people are inhuman, no, i just
remember africa and how i dont give a damn about people dying of aids over there, i m just saving my butt like anybody else,
pretty much like you or rest of us non saints but all we have here is form issue everybody is facing, to answer these kind of questions i dont think mind and its counterparts can be of much help unless someone deliberately wants to go crazy.
But if you ever get tired of these questions theres always some peace i find in PON that passeth all UNDERSTANDING.
Free of need to be Free.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:13 am

BrahmanEternal wrote:Look, i know you may be pondering over this classic existential question that troubles everybody, but seriously nobody helped me when it was tough and i asked many people, should i cry how people are inhuman, no, i just
remember africa and how i dont give a damn about people dying of aids over there, i m just saving my butt like anybody else,
pretty much like you or rest of us non saints but all we have here is form issue everybody is facing, to answer these kind of questions i dont think mind and its counterparts can be of much help unless someone deliberately wants to go crazy.
But if you ever get tired of these questions theres always some peace i find in PON that passeth all UNDERSTANDING.
For you it was Africa -- for my wife and I, it was some years spent in the
work of renunciate swayamsevaks in South Asia.

For us, it was not so much a matter of "going crazy," as it was comprehending
Buddhists and Hindus who would walk right by a suffering brother or sister,
happily chanting their mantras and singing out their namastes to passers-by.

If reining in the mind also means giving up attachments to compassion and
the human instinct to help another, that is problematic to me.

But, as the poet seems to say, even brotherly love and human compassion
will "pass away."

I wonder...

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:16 am

Question is why people do good deeds, is it because they really feel compassion or is it they
want to feel good about themselves? To feel genuine love one must 'die' to this world, and please
raise hand who is willing to do this, how many hands you see is how many enlightened people are,
i doubt many will, which is why true love is so rare. This is what enlightenment and turning the cheek is
all about, why people dont understand the simple turn cheek philosophy, but at least i dont delude myself
with goodist identifications.
Free of need to be Free.

Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:00 am

I don't think Jesus said turn the other cheek because its the good and loving thing to do. He taught that one should be spiritually unmovable "like a man who built his house upon the rock." I think the modern interpretation has ruined the wisdom of this spiritual juggernaut.

And there is nothing wrong in walking past a person in suffering either. You are not obligated to do anything in this life. If you help others because of a mental image of an enlightened person than your acts are not geniune and dont flow out of a truly enlightened self. Trying to become enlightened through outer action is exactly what jesus warned about when he said that people were "trying to enter the kingdom of heaven violently" and calling people "decorated caskets" because they were only concerned about the outside rather than the inside.

Vernon Howard always warned against charity that flows from a false sense of responsibility and false guilt.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:12 am

Hi Vpopov, if by spiritually unmovable you mean acting from place of forgiveness then that is what i meant, that is
unconditional love.
Jesus had simple message, you are in a movie children do not act like you know what screenplay is about.
Free of need to be Free.

Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:23 am

I meant that you are not shaken internally. You are capable of being slapped and your happiness being unaffected. And the most practical reason for forgiveness is that if you don't forgive you are the one who suffers, it has nothing to do with being good. When Jesus was called good teacher he would respond "why are you calling me good?" not because he was just so good as to deny his goodness, its because it had nothing to do with goodness. He was showing the way for humans to live free of suffering not by being good but by being practical and in accordance with cosmic law. And yet we chose barabas over christ which to me is the ultimate archetypal image of humans choosing suffeirng over peace. There is no need to be good no need to be enlightened. The only need is practicality. Find out what causes your suffering and systematically work to remove it.

Did you ever see the scene in Fight Club where Lou is beating up Tyler and Tyler is screaming "Oh ya Lou get it out!!!" and laughing. That is turning the other cheek. The ability to not be moved by the external world.

Love flows out of wellbeing. If you aren't loving its simply because you don't feel good. If you correct your inner state you natural inclination will be to express the nature of that state, and the nature of that state is goodness.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:38 am

Forgiveness is nothing but suspension of judgment,
we either forgive present moment of being in dungeon on torture table or in #1 fantasy, Jesus wanted to liberate us from anything.
Its funny how we our judgments change throughout years and same things that were bad can often become "good" all of sudden, from good to bad, back and forth, from suffering to pleasure, beyond that lies something else.
Free of need to be Free.

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