This too shall pass.

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Onceler
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Onceler » Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:26 pm

Great Thread!

You hit on something I puzzle over quite a bit...and I don't mean to de-rail the flow
And there is nothing wrong in walking past a person in suffering either. You are not obligated to do anything in this life. If you help others because of a mental image of an enlightened person than your acts are not geniune and dont flow out of a truly enlightened self. Trying to become enlightened through outer action is exactly what jesus warned about when he said that people were "trying to enter the kingdom of heaven violently" and calling people "decorated caskets" because they were only concerned about the outside rather than the inside.

Vernon Howard always warned against charity that flows from a false sense of responsibility and false guilt.
If i give ten dollars out of the wrong motive, or for egoic reasons, will that money harm the person it is given to? Is the energy of the money somehow tainted?

Because if not, it seems that if you give money for the "wrong" reasons, knowing that you have the wrong motive, but are willing to accept the suffering the giving causes in terms of ego identification, then the giving would become altruistic/beneficial at least in the sense that you are willing to take full personal responsibility for the act.

I just give a certain percentage of my income and don't think about it. Then if I see extra need and it seems "right" I give spontaneously, and these are usually small acts of giving....I am waiting for the day I am moved to be generous until it hurts and see what happens...
Be present, be pleasant.

Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:02 pm

In my opinion it depends on the context of giving. If you are giving for egoic reasons I will quote Jesus and say you have your reward in full. If you are giving out of a false sense of responsibility or obligation or even guilt then this is when giving is a sin and will harm both you and the one you give to. This is a situation which requires your own alive intelligence to decide. If youa re giving without thinking twice I wouldnt worry about it but if you feel bad when you dont give, then thats where you need to practice. Just an opinion though


I highly recommend Vernon Howards teachings in this department.

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Onceler
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Onceler » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:11 pm

Thanks, that makes sense and was sort of where I was going. I like the "alive intelligence" part. So through alive intelligence you can ascertain the "karmic" need of the recipient--if it is right to give? On the other hand, can there be any wrong action, egoic or otherwise? Maybe that is what ET means by saying "yes" to the present.

I will put Howard on my to-do list!
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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:38 pm

In relative importance there can be wrong when one thing leads to another bad thing, in the absolute importance, that can be related to multiple things out of our relative view, there can be no wrong. So to step out of this cycle from relative to absolute being is one step back and its is all it takes to taste the peace available anywhere and everyone, if theres no courage for this i suggest to all of us to keep watching Oprah and practicing Law of attraction principles but theres nothing wrong with that either, the Tolle work is only for the most courageous on this forum though who are willing to look a bit further, beyond this body, mind, car, house, planet and life, beyond the depths of this Universe that has no end and no beginning, it is very very vast isnt it, but the ego will not accept it, it will say i want to be sure i get something out of this there has to be control of things, let go of painful control and things will get controlled spontaneously.
Last edited by BrahmanEternal on Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Vpopov81
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:43 pm

Onceler wrote:Thanks, that makes sense and was sort of where I was going. I like the "alive intelligence" part. So through alive intelligence you can ascertain the "karmic" need of the recipient--if it is right to give? On the other hand, can there be any wrong action, egoic or otherwise? Maybe that is what ET means by saying "yes" to the present.

I will put Howard on my to-do list!

when I say alive intelligence I am not talking about reading into other peoples karma or cosmic phenomena. I am talking about your inetlligence and ability to read the needs of the situation. There no clear clear cut and dry answers on how to live and what to do each situation is unique.

And saying yes to the present moment simply means to not make the present moment into an enemy not because thats the good thing to do, but because thats how you avoid suffering. It is perfectly acceptable to say no to someone while remaining friendly and free of suffering. This teaching is not to make you good loving and spiritual but a practical guide on how to avoid suffering and when you are free of suffering you become a good loving and spiritual person. Honestly my advice to you is to pay attention to your action and study it. Maybe after you give you will learn a lesson that it did not help solve the problem of the person in need. Maybe after you say no you will realize something else. Just pay attention and learn form your mistakes.

It has been my experience that if the person lacks there is reason for his or her lack and any help you give will cause them to avoid the consequences of unskillful living and it will curtail their growth. And even when you do give, their circumstances will quickly return to as they were because the roots of the problem are still there. Only when a person is suffering and forced to help himself can he pull himself out of crisis.

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Onceler
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Onceler » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:49 pm

Thanks for the articulate response,
It has been my experience that if the person lacks there is reason for his or her lack and any help you give will cause them to avoid the consequences of unskillful living and it will curtail their growth. And even when you do give, their circumstances will quickly return to as they were because the roots of the problem are still there. Only when a person is suffering and forced to help himself can he pull himself out of crisis.
I see the wisdom of this and agree. Yet there is a part of me that will have to investigate on this a little more.

Maybe others can add their wisdom as well.
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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:47 pm

Vpopov81 wrote: ...there is nothing wrong in walking past a person in suffering either...
Perhaps not.

And, perhaps there would have been "nothing wrong" with your mother
throwing you into a trashcan, five minutes after you were born.

If all things are transitory, then love and hate are mere "mindstuff."
Life and death have no more consequence than gross illusion.
Platonic ideals are empty mental constructs.
The Tao, Brahman, and the Buddah Nature are meaningless.
And the lovingkindness of the biblical God is a delusion.

There is a simple test for such things. We can each tie an air-tight
plastic bag around our heads, and sit back to await the consequences.

If the self, the bag, oxygen and the cosmos are mere transient stuff --
if our postings to on-line forums is useless mindstuff -- then those
particular consequences (whatever they may be) are inconsequential.

Why then, should we not attempt such an experiment?

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by Vpopov81 » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:17 pm

DBroadhurst wrote:
Vpopov81 wrote: ...there is nothing wrong in walking past a person in suffering either...


If all things are transitory, then love and hate are mere "mindstuff."
Life and death have no more consequence than gross illusion.




D.

Life has consequences but they are temporary.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:32 am

DBroadhurst wrote: Perhaps not.
And, perhaps there would have been "nothing wrong" with your mother
throwing you into a trashcan, five minutes after you were born.
If all things are transitory, then love and hate are mere "mindstuff."
Life and death have no more consequence than gross illusion.
Platonic ideals are empty mental constructs.
The Tao, Brahman, and the Buddah Nature are meaningless.
And the lovingkindness of the biblical God is a delusion.
There is a simple test for such things. We can each tie an air-tight
plastic bag around our heads, and sit back to await the consequences.
D.
Your view may be illusion. But who is to judge what is not illusion?
Who is to say what God and Love is and where Love is.
If you dont test then you cant say, so either way you do not know and in admitting this not knowing
is silence, joy and freedom.
Why make life a suffering?
Free of need to be Free.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:37 am

BrahmanEternal wrote:
Why make life a suffering?
Suffering is inevitable in this existence. It will come sooner or later for all of us.
But, as you imply, there is no reason for us to compound that problem, by adding
more suffering to it, of our own making.

Beyond that, we are left with the fact that all things are transitory, and that
all consequences in this existence appear to be temporary. Perhaps we all more or
less now agree with that observation.

Which only leaves the question as to whether there is an Eternal Source for
our temporal world. (And that is not a question that the mind alone can solve.)

The Buddhist will say that it is useless for us to pursue such questions. And
the Vedantist will say that, while there is indeed a Source, that it is beyond
the mind's ability to discern -- save by methodical elimination of an infinite
number of false possibilities.

So, we are left with the fact that the mind cannot tell whether there is a Source,
and that our attempted intellectualizations here lead only to absurdities, circular
logic, and paradoxes.

And, perhaps you will agree that such realizations are confirmed, not by any
further thinking and talking, but rather, by our direct experience of what IS.

We've come full circle now, haven't we?

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:22 pm

Ok lets say we die and get in heaven the angels are flying theres my deceased familly hugging me we are dancing, singing reunited,
then all of sudden i wake up in cold sweat, crying i realize it was all just a dream. Allthough there may be appearance of transparency of values anything can be reasonably challenged to the point of nihilism.
But until then we are here, suffering, identifying with being the lucky ones the good guys or suffering terribly feeling invalidated and bad ones, or perhaps we will not do either and just be, just dance, play, have fun like the guy from WhereTheHellisMatt.com, have fun with familly, friends and loved ones without identifiying with them, travel world, change what you can even even if you know it only appears good, dont look so serious like politicians, dont look judgmental like phariseys, dont look so mad like tom cruise(joke he rules), and be comfortable in not knowing of separation and then some "thing" will show us what we have never knew before and we will find all we ever wanted.
Free of need to be Free.

gretta
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by gretta » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:24 am

DBroadhurst wrote:
Vpopov81 wrote: ...
EVEN THIS WILL PASS AWAY.”
—Theodore Tilton


"What remains is the Source of (...)
And that cannot pass away...."



D.
yes, beautiful ! ((( :D )))

and no apparent 'thing' is separate from (that) THIS Source / Self




as well....

some beauty gifted by an apparent 'other'...smiles:


"When the formless expanse of awareness comes clearly into view, obsession with thought forms ceases easily and naturally...." Tilopa's Song to Naropa

and

"If I've never been bound...I can never be liberated.... How could you think that the Self Is restricted to formlessness or imprisoned by form."
Avadhut Gita

perhaps


ahhh Love

gretta

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:20 am

gretta wrote: THIS Source / Self...

gretta
There is a sort of reluctance welling up in me,
that is afraid to call the Source, "self."

If it is the truth -- then so be it, but we bhaktas
do better in devotion, than we do in word parsing.

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Word
shall not pass away." (the Christians' God)

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by gretta » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:35 am

DBroadhurst wrote:
gretta wrote: THIS Source / Self...

gretta
There is a sort of reluctance welling up in me,
that is afraid to call the Source, "self."



D.
Self (upper case S) not ''self'' (lower case s / identity / ego)

although also ... Self appears AS apparent 'self'

and

there is no division ...no separation...of This 'Wholeness'...of This 'Oneness' (not two-ness)

perhaps

ahh Love

gretta

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DBroadhurst
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Re: This too shall pass.

Post by DBroadhurst » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:44 am

gretta wrote: (upper case S)...
Oh, for a devanagari keyboard (or a Hebrew one) --
That I might write songs without capital letters.

But it is the Song that writes me,
With neither keyboard nor hands.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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