Doing

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Dongle
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Doing

Post by Dongle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:06 pm

I was reading through the topic on awareness, and as I read, excerpts jump out at me shouting truth, but also I am left with an apparent lack of understanding, as if there is some essential level at which I am unable to grasp the truth. It seems the action of grasping must be accompanied by something, a sense or feeling, a willingness, that I have yet to find. In the still mind identified state I perceive, as a result of practice, a depth to both my experience and my understanding that sometimes shocks me, it reaches a place within me that is untapped, behind all the stuff, and there is a sense of a warmth and a glow. Nevertheless there is still this I, and as many times as I experience these extraordinary sensations, I am still in a position of confusion, there is still a gaseousness I cannot penetrate.

I think I have come to the extent that I can travel with my mind, the stripping away of all the stuff. More accurately, I feel I have reached the limit of what I can achieve without action. We seem to be creatures of action, as I have come to recognize the role of physical behavior in the development of identity, I now find that a life without activity, without physical doing, cannot ever be a life of being. Though to all of you this may seem a simple observation, It has eluded my understanding for years, perhaps because I chose it to. Nevertheless, my motivations and indeed motivation in general is another topic of discussion, that perhaps I will take up later.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Doing

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:32 pm

Dongle wrote:I think I have come to the extent that I can travel with my mind, the stripping away of all the stuff. More accurately, I feel I have reached the limit of what I can achieve without action. We seem to be creatures of action, as I have come to recognize the role of physical behavior in the development of identity, I now find that a life without activity, without physical doing, cannot ever be a life of being.
An excellent insight Dongle. Life is not so much about meditating in a cave, (although doing so for a time may help clear ones awareness) it's about relationships and living in loving harmony with all the events and diversity that come our way. Action engages us with life, presence allows us to live fully within the richness of manifest conditions, and acceptance keeps us free of separating judgments.

Once recognition of ego/mind is clear, how mind chatter and beliefs about "me" masquerades as identity, one can engage life with a sense of inclusive presence that is inherently at peace - even in stormy conditions.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:01 pm

It is a matter of motivation and many kinds of motivations exist not only category like self image enhancment, for example
when you engage in conversations you do not observe what people think of "you" but you can still feel compelled to tell a hilarious joke,
a great movie like story, or a beneficial insight that the Whole can enjoy.
So confusing inertia and being present often happens but i hope this clearls it up a bit.

As many have witnessed the power of will and ego are different concepts, will is like a fuel and you can think of ego
like a thief of that fuel who wants to use it for its own rational and mostly irational purposes, Freud calls this Libido , a life force that
moves the body, this force is what can save us in crisis and its responsable for many inspirational stories that show the power of Will,
so think of will as something sacred, not a child of ego.

Being so doubtful, insecure and suspicious by nature ego and its manipulation of libido is a block to creativity because its nature is to
judge what is good and bad it scares the content of ones creativity and the potential is never fully expressed in any creative attempt
overseen by ego, the perfect example of this is Christmass Carol story by Charles Dickens about a writer who struggled to write the best
book out there in attempt to become famous and gain security he so much desired but he goes on a journey of his soul where he meets
many poor families and he discovers many truths he has never known that there is not such thing as security and separation of that security,
only at the moment of pure Love when he was motivated from deeper sources he was able to write the most beautiful book and reveal his true
creative potential.
Free of need to be Free.

Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:12 pm

Webwanderer, thank you for your encouragement, as well as the honesty with which you have communicated with me in the past, for which I was then dubiously greatful and now appreciate.

BrahmanEternal, the confusion I refer to relates more to my experience of a dead end or dead spot in my explorations of mind, it is a place of gaseous greyness, not at all related to presence or a sense of peace. It leaves me with a feeling of not knowing that I appreciate but also a sense of confusion I do not comprehend, I feel it is precisely because I have failed to allow myself to experience the physical world to quote webwanderer
it's about relationships and living in loving harmony with all the events and diversity that come our way
I have avoided events that require decisions at all costs, I have let life pass on without me while I watch from the fence as if watching the behaviour of some foreign entity. I have developed a skewed practice that alienates the need to relate, that allows me to relate on my own terms and has given me little patience for the trivial stories of both others and myself. Missing out on such a vital part of my own and human existence is for the time being at least where I locate my chief concern. I do not regret of course and I do not believe I would have experienced such significant insights were it not for how I exist, and while I know everything to be well, fine and all good, I have chosen a new path of action, perhaps even just now, that I will endeavor to choose on a daily basis.

I will return shortly for this talking about motivation. :)

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:19 pm

Dongle wrote: ...It seems the action of grasping must be accompanied by something, a sense or feeling, a willingness,
that I have yet to find....
Or, that you have yet to lose --

We can make an analogy with what some psychologists call the human subconscious.
Normally our active, perceiving selves are unaware of subconscious functions. With
proper instruction (or by great personal insight) we can become aware of what the
subconscious is and how we make use of it, in ways not overtly evident.

Or, for even a finer point of analogy -- what is the human will? How do we become
aware of our individual willpower and take charge of that elusive ability?

Or, for a purely mechanical analogy -- what happens when you grab at a floating
bar of soap under your bathwater? The very act of trying to catch the object makes
the task more difficult. Sometimes things work out better by just stirring up the
water a little, and waiting for the elusive bar of soap to drift into your hands.

Although I cannot recommend it as a similar "mechanical" process, our own selflessness
seems to be the "something" you are asking about. I say that I cannot recommend it,
because we generally do not exercise selflessness as a method by which to achieve a
certain end.

But, contemplating selflessness may be a good beginning.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:25 pm

Being selfless is separation, same as being selfish. When you do whats best for the universe that does not mean you are always ignoring your own needs you are just living in harmony with universe, hence the saying to help others help yourself first, so being selfish is actually not being selfish, its doing that harmonous thing at the moment, much like not giving a drunk begger 10$ because he will buy booze and destroy his liver a bit more, someone not realizing he will buy booze would say oh you are a selfish materialistic bastard give the poor man some money but its just not for the interest of the whole.
Free of need to be Free.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:51 pm

BrahmanEternal wrote:Being selfless is separation, same as being selfish. When you do whats best for the universe that does not mean you are always ignoring your own needs you are just living in harmony with universe, hence the saying to help others help yourself first, so being selfish is actually not being selfish, its doing that harmonous thing at the moment, much like not giving a drunk begger 10$ because he will buy booze and destroy his liver a bit more, someone not realizing he will buy booze would say oh you are a selfish materialistic bastard give the poor man some money but its just not for the interest of the whole.
There are, of course, different meanings for the word -- an aspect which we might
well center upon, in the recommended contemplation of what selflessness might be.

It might entail our thinking, altruistic person-hood, trying to "do good."

Or, it might be simple physical suicide, or an accepted martyrdom.

Or, it might entail relinquishing our instinctive self-protectiveness as an experiment.

My own experience has been something rather like pushing away from the safety
of a swimming pool edge, backwards into the unknown depths of frigid, inky blackness
-- not to experience pain and terror, but to encounter exactly their opposite.

Only, there is no infinite pool of oblivion; and there is no me.

There is only this pitiful attempt at communicating what can never be related
in words, in this virtual forum of disembodied voices.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

sailing
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Re: Doing

Post by sailing » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:55 pm

DBroadhurst wrote: what is the human will? How do we become
aware of our individual willpower and take charge of that elusive ability?
My understanding of will - there is self-will and there is Gods will. God = Source. Which would you suppose is for a higher purpose?

Your sister, sailing
"We are sailing, stormy waters, to be near you, to be free."
Rod Stewart

Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:28 pm

Dbroadhurst, thank you for your post, it is not a question of what, or a question of semantic description of that which isn't within my grasp, it is only a statement that it isn't. What it is I am missing is irrelevant, as you say the very act of grasping is an inhibitory action, it does not matter what it is, only that it is. And that it is not here.

I think sailing's statement communicates simply what will is, although, I do not feel that there needs to be purpose. I was reading another topic a short time ago, and there it is discussed how the ego manipulates and bends our will to its purpose, will is always there, we don't have to acknowledge its existence, as I type out this post will is involved, it is when we are aligned with the will of the source, or what ever you wish to call it, that we experience will for what it is.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:54 pm

sailing wrote:
DBroadhurst wrote: what is the human will? How do we become
aware of our individual willpower and take charge of that elusive ability?
My understanding of will - there is self-will and there is Gods will. God = Source. Which would you
suppose is for a higher purpose?

Your sister, sailing
I come from a theistic heritage and from grad studies in Christian theology, so I'm
just naturally pre-conditioned to think of "God's will" in biblical terms. Perhaps we
could find some discussion of what you mention, in the history and writings of the
old Christian mystics, such as St. John of the Cross, etc.

But I am not inclined to go searching there for answers.

Ultimately, God's will and human will must be essentially the same. And, beyond that
tautology, I'd suggest that the "will" of sentient beings is a secondary phenomenon --
not that it is unreal, but that it is begotten of a higher reality.

But let's take away the "a" and the "higher," and just say Reality.
When there is no difference between God's will and our will -- and
when there is no opposite to "the will" itself, Reality is evident.

Again, as a theist, I approach the situation by subjugating my will to God's will.
But that is merely my bhakta vocabulary at work, trying to describe the ineffable.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Re: Doing

Post by kiki » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:47 pm

I am still in a position of confusion, there is still a gaseousness I cannot penetrate.
Well, whatever you do, don't light a match! (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself :oops: ) On the other hand, that may be the very thing you should do. :wink:
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:49 pm

Dongle wrote: ...I think sailing's statement communicates simply what will is...
My purpose in pointing to that analogy was not so much to try and define "will,"
as it was to allude to the fact that the "will" is not easily grasped by the mind.
It is invisible and formless -- not directly apparent to perception -- not directly
controllable by the intellect. And yet we know it, from results in our lives.

It was those discernible qualities I was pointing to -- as an analogy to what it is
that we each must gain (or lose), in order make some progress on the path.

For some of us, it is a series of realizations, resulting from meditation, etc.

But, again, we easily get off on the wrong track if we expect that a series
of events will bring "enlightenment" to the self, or that there is a "path."

Awareness, without reflection -- that may be worth our considering.

And how do we get to that point? It may sound like a paradox, but we are
already there -- it is our true nature, behind the motions of mundane life.

So, is such an awareness a kind of end-point in a series of steps? I suppose
that might be the appearance (or the mental conclusion) some of us make.
But such stuff is still not the "something" you spoke of earlier.

At the risk of repeating myself, I return to the precept of selflessness.

Words fail me after that.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:14 pm

Will is a funny concept i read somewhere an instruction how to make you want to do something, in theory you could want something as unimportant like scratching your nose more then you would will to save yourself from an approaching great white shark 100 yards from the shore. The goal of instruction is to manipulate thought processes that govern the distribution of will so as we move through life blind or not blind we distribute our will accordingly and if you ask me this is a whole lot of bullshit many times.
Also will is a feeling and it can be felt as an impulse directed towards an object if you watch carefully there is an impulse to do most of things in life or an impulse to stop from doing it.
Free of need to be Free.

Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:38 pm

Unfortunately I seem to have forgot to put the commas in the sentence you quoted ' ,simply,' I am not sure if that will affect your perception of the statement, though I was really trying to communicate my perception by extrapolation of sailing's quote. Nevertheless, I have read over both of your posts more than once, I think I understand what you mean by selflessness, thank you for it.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:09 am

BrahmanEternal wrote: ... but its just not for the interest of the whole.
I'll share a story with you -- which may or may not be fully accurate,
but since it takes place in Africa, you may have already heard it.

A small, impoverished village in central Africa had a very high infant
mortality rate -- the new-born were falling victim to parasites and toxins
in the polluted water supply, and only a few of them were surviving.

So an international aid group came in, drilled deep wells, to supply
clean water, and to provide for better health in the area.

But, with the clean water, fewer infants and elderly people died each
year, and the village population soon outstripped the local food supply.
Some villagers tried moving elsewhere, but without their tribal support
system, they fared badly and drifted back to the doomed village.

Now starvation and complications arising from malnutrition had replaced
the earlier problems of infant mortality. The entire village was stricken.

Your thoughts?

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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