Doing

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Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:53 pm

In spite of the depth of suffering experienced by these people, reading your post puts a smile on my face, in some way it brings perspective, there are of course many other stories such as this one, where an external agency has intervened in a natural environment, and exposed it to unnatural conditions, by natural I mean already a part of the eco-system. This is the case at all levels, including the level of our own individuated existence, regardless, I am left with a sense of grief for those who are suffering, but also with a sense that the suffering is unnecessary, not was but is, and that regardless of the varied actions associated with human thinking and doing, all will still be well, the equilibrium will be maintained. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we should not take actions such as those taken by the aid workers, all we can do is act honestly with a sense of accountability to some agency, preferably ourselves.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:07 pm

Dongle wrote:In spite of the depth of suffering experienced by these people, reading your post puts a smile on my face, in some way it brings perspective, there are of course many other stories such as this one, where an external agency has intervened in a natural environment, and exposed it to unnatural conditions, by natural I mean already a part of the eco-system. This is the case at all levels, including the level of our own individuated existence, regardless, I am left with a sense of grief for those who are suffering, but also with a sense that the suffering is unnecessary, not was but is, and that regardless of the varied actions associated with human thinking and doing, all will still be well, the equilibrium will be maintained. Nevertheless, this does not mean that we should not take actions such as those taken by the aid workers, all we can do is act honestly with a sense of accountability to some agency, preferably ourselves.

There is another story -- even less likely to be accurate, but also instructive.

A Christian minister and a Buddhist lama were out together for a stroll
around a small lake. They had just about completed their walk, when they
saw a struggling man, far out in the water. He was obviously drowning --
his head was going under for the third time. He had moments left to live.

The lama gazed on in great compassion, knowing inside the wonderful
truth that all sentient beings are kin to one another -- and that the dying
man would one day be released from the wheel of karma. He smiled.

The minister, struck with overwhelming sympathy for a fellow human being,
jumped into the lake and swam out to save the drowning man....

Whose struggles pulled both men into the deadly waters -- and both died.

The lama completed his circuit of the lake, had dinner and went to bed.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:36 pm

I believe I understand the lesson in this story, and indeed how it is associated with the previous one, nevertheless, I do not comprehend the value of such a story in terms of the world in which we live. We do not lead lives of isolation and we should not, what of service?

I almost feel again as if I am starting from 0, of course I know it is not possible, but all that I have learned and experienced, any insights I have had, seem to pale in comparison to my inability to let go. Even as I read through your challenging posts, Dbroadhurst, I feel I lack a certain understanding. I still have this need to be right, this aversion to advice. It seems I want the stuff that I discover to be mine, I read one of webwanderer's posts two days ago and in it he was talking about how we experience everything through the lens of ourselves, I have contemplated this many times, and there was a feeling of entitlement as I read over the post, as if I wanted to be the one who said it first. I understand that the this is not 'me' but I seem to experience everything through my mind, and as I discover insights into how and why and who, I feel as if I am feeding the ego with new techniques, new methods for fooling me. A friend of mine recently told me that when I talk to him he senses a lack of hope. I did not find the statement useful and indeed discussed with him my concern with hope as a concept. However, having read through this paragraph I feel I sense the lack of hope also, as if I am standing in a nothingness with no light to guide me.
Last edited by Dongle on Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:05 pm

Dongle wrote:I believe I understand the lesson in this story, and indeed how it is associated with the previous one, nevertheless, I do not comprehend the value of such a story in terms of the world in which we live. We do not lead lives of isolation and we should not, what of service?
Perhaps BrahmanEternal will have some better insight to offer,
but one point worth making, is that the lama and the minister
are not meant to represent opposing viewpoints. Together, they
represent the human reaction to suffering. We are not so much
worried about which of their two options was the better one, as
we are concerned about balancing actions and expectations.

To me, at least, "service" is an aspect of karma yoga -- a natural
reaction to needs we perceive all around us -- but not a reaction
grounded in attachment to results.

If that makes any sense at all.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

Dongle
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Re: Doing

Post by Dongle » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:22 pm

It does make sense. Thank you Dbroadhurst.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:33 am

We all want abundance and we all struggle for it, even the saints. If you want me to admit you are better person then rest of us who didnt go to
Africa you wont see that. :)
If one does a good deed its ok but that does not make him a better person or special, if it does its ego in action.
There are lot of animals who suffer billion times more in nearest slaughterhouse and we dont need to go to Africa we only need to stop eating meat. On one hand people who download pedophilic materials are persecuted, why dont we start persecuting those who support slaughtering and torture of animals. These are complex subjects and lots of discussion is needed to cover them in detail but lets stick to the discussion of doing.

Lets think of what we think daily , its our own goals mostly, how to become enlightened, where is the latest satsang of Tolle, maybe i should download that Adya satsang so i can be in bliss and think im special and make my own sect, its all egoic will underneath that, but at least i m honest about it, i m egoistic but so are most of the people here, in Africa or in America.
But of course nobody helps animals or says we should stop eating meat because the rest of population is 90% meat eaters who will think he is crazy and not grant the person egoic gratification of being a good man on path of god but it will result in shame one will feel. Lets divide here the service to ego and service to God, service to God is when you take a flight above the world of form, above other egos, thoughts of other people about us, thoughts of ourselves about us, its another kind of world on those heights, and not lots of people are brave enough to let this body die and be reborn as a new Self.
Last edited by BrahmanEternal on Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:42 am

From my reading of ET and other people, it seems that they are saying the most critical element in our lives is aligning our awareness with the present, not serving others or helping. If we are aligned with the present, we will naturally act in ways that are in tune with reality.

We will save those that need to be saved, and this act would be instinctual and not intellectually processed at all, and not act on behalf of those who don't need it....or who's reality does not require intervention. Again not an intellectual process, but subservient to greater awareness.

This requires that we be totally tuned in and ego free, in therory anyway. I don't thing I am up for that and will continue to make blunders driven by ego and hit on the right thing on occasion.
Be present, be pleasant.

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:11 am

Self preservation of illusion is what it is. I think one of the worst motivations is doing something for self image enhancment, when you wish to view yourself as more intellectual, beautiful etc. One is often unaware of the real motivation that runs the show in the backstage of Ego, for example someone may eat something thinking he is eating for the sake of food but is actually doing it so he can be more relaxed on the date and leave a better impression, but even that may not be the what id call the ultimate motivation-goal ego has planned for the host. We need to throw this kind of motivations in garbage and running for enlightenment is one of them, why do we want to become enlightened, is it only to free ourselves from pain? I dont think so.
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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:16 am

BrahmanEternal wrote:... I think one of the worst motivations is doing something for
self image enhancment, when you wish to view yourself as more intellectual, beautiful etc....
An excellent point. Many of us act in ways that we hope/expect will bring some
sort of admiration -- or will overcome our self-doubts, guilt, lack of pride, etc.

No doubt there are many of us who will have to pass through that doorway,
at least once -- of first being admired; or of developing initial self-pride, etc.

But, why get on a circular path that must pass again and again through such stuff?
Self-pride turns into self-absorption. Overcoming guilt turns into self-righteousness.

There are other motivations, of a different nature, though. The motivation of joy --
the motivation of instinctive sharing -- the motivation of expressing gratitude.

I earlier re-told the story of the drowning man --- but, in a very real way, I myself
was once in that situation and a nameless stranger pulled me from a raging river,
for no particular reason, other than human kindness.

I try to pass such goodness along, as best I can. But as soon as I allow expectations
to attach to my hopefully decent actions, those expectations tend to turn life sour.

So, how do we show gratitude for the ultimate realization?
(Yes, I know, another absurd question.)

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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kiki
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Re: Doing

Post by kiki » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:38 pm

So, how do we show gratitude for the ultimate realization?
By sharing those things that were helpful to you with others who are looking for that realization themselves. And for those who aren't, by being fully present with them no matter what their circumstance may be.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:26 pm

kiki wrote:
So, how do we show gratitude for the ultimate realization?
By sharing those things that were helpful to you with others who are looking for that realization themselves. And for those who aren't, by being fully present with them no matter what their circumstance may be.
Agreed --

I called my question "absurd," because the "ultimate realization" naturally
encompasses the totality of possibilities, including answers to questions.

Still, I awaken each morning to discover a limited self -- a limited consciousness
inhabiting a physical body. And that self naturally asks questions (even questions
about what IS, when experience/encounter has already provided the answers).

Another in a seemingly endless number of paradoxes, here in time-space.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:44 pm

"ibetan Buddhists believe that saying the mantra (prayer), Om Mani Padme Hum, out loud or silently to oneself, invokes the powerful benevolent attention and blessings of Chenrezig, the embodiment of compassion. Viewing the written form of the mantra is said to have the same effect -- it is often carved into stones, like the one pictured above, and placed where people can see them."

"Mani, the jewel, symbolizes factors of method, compassion and love, the altruistic intention to become enlightened. "Just as a jewel is capable of removing poverty, so the altruistic mind of enlightenment is capable of removing the poverty, or difficulties, and of solitary peace. Similarly, just as a jewel fulfills the wishes of sentient beings, so the altruistic intention to become enlightened fulfills the wishes of sentient beings".

So lets become enlightened out of love for the universe that does not exclude anything, not to stand out and view ourselves as more special then the rest of the people.
Om Mani Padme Hum my brothers and sisters.
Free of need to be Free.

gretta
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Re: Doing

Post by gretta » Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:46 pm

.



"As long as you are unaware of Being, you will seek meaning only within the dimension of doing and of future, that is to say, the dimension of time."

p 263 A New Earth... Eckhart Tolle



perhaps

ahhh Love

gretta

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aquarius123esoteric
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Re: Doing

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:02 pm

Unless we help them to grow their own food, we shall get no further. Just supplying clean water and better health care on its own is not enough, as the story illustrates. It's the same old story of giving a person a fish and feeding them for a day, or teaching them how to fish, thus feeding them and their offspring for life. With love - Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

Goethe

You can find my writings and download
them free of charge from my website
www.raysofwisdom.com

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:48 pm

aquarius123esoteric wrote: Unless we help them to grow their own food, we shall get no further. Just supplying clean water and better health care on its own is not enough, as the story illustrates. It's the same old story of giving a person a fish and feeding them for a day, or teaching them how to fish, thus feeding them and their offspring for life. With love - Aquarius
These human situations tend to be fraught with complexities. Minority groups are
pushed over onto the least productive lands, and onto lands remote from necessary
resources, such as communication, transportation, etc.

At the same time, in traditional tribal societies, poor people are inclined to
bring many children into the world -- through ignorance, fatalism, the hope
that a few survivors will care for elderly parents, etc. etc.

The same tribal society that might do fairly well for itself, living on productive
farmland with few external pressures, can devolve into great misery and
backwardness, when subjected to "modernization," tribal competition, loss
of traditional cultural values, loss of a sense of community identity, etc.

Neither digging them better wells, nor supplying them with better farming
resources will be of much use, if their situation has become truly hopeless.

At some point we come to the conclusion, that charity is problematic. It may
be "good" and "right" in general, and still be problematic in many instances.
Prince Gautama found that human suffering was everywhere outside of his royal
palace -- even Jesus concluded that the poor will be with us always.

I reluctantly adopt BramanEternal's realistic viewpoint -- while, at the same
time, remaining idealistic in my day-to-day interactions. I suppose that we
each must find a balance in such things; but also be open to having our
entire worldview influenced by greater and greater realizations.

There seem to be many, many more questions, than there are answers.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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