Doing

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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:48 am

Why adopt a "point of view"? How is that helpful? Why do we need a point of view?

What about acting spontaneously without a point of view?

Or just acting or not acting.

"Try not, do or do not. There is no try" Yoda
Be present, be pleasant.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:40 am

Onceler wrote: Why adopt a "point of view"? How is that helpful? Why do we need a point of view?
What about acting spontaneously without a point of view?..
Another of the unanswerable questions -- Why put on a raincoat in the rain?;
or why bother breathe the air?; or why ever adopt any particular point of view?

I'm not sure there are any good answers.

What about "acting spontaneously?" -- Again we go back to basics, I suppose.
What if, as an infant, your mother had acted "spontaneously" and allowed you
to starve to death, instead of taking the point of view that you should be fed?

But, the more Tolle is consulted, the more and more it appears that there
never was a past when you were an infant -- and there will never be a
future (beyond this moment of my writing) wherein you could starve.

So, why do I adopt the point of view that I will post this message to a
digital forum?

We might all do better to renounce language and communication henceforth.
The destruction of the self in the eternal flames of "Now," eh?

I wonder.....

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:30 pm

I am saying that creating a "mission statement" that determines ones actions when it comes to helping others or charity is a point of view that cannot be used spontaneously in the moment, and creates a rigidity and inflexibility in action. I usually have a "policy" about not giving out money to people on the streets, but sometimes I do, and generously, for no reason.

I work in a food bank with students and enjoy the several hours of bagging groceries and chitchat that we don't get to do in class as often. I don't spend a lot of time wondering if my actions are egoic, or harming others by giving them food when they should be earning it some other way. In fact I usually broaden my awareness of others and feel gratitude for what I have. I always learn from my experience there as do my students.

I believe that if one wants to work with the "disadvantaged" one should do so, certainly with awareness that you must do no harm, but also with the awareness of who is the disadvantaged?

In my opinion,

Egoic charity is: " I come to save you and give my bounty"
Non-egoic charity is: I want to be open to the moment with you and expect nothing in return, accept maybe a broadening of awareness and being open to what you can teach me.

DBroadhurst, it sounds like your experiences in other countries were truly rich in learning and you gained perhaps as much or more than you gave?

It seems the flow of giving/recieving, advantaged/disadvantaged is only created by our constructs and "point of view"
Be present, be pleasant.

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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:18 pm

I want to add an addendum to my previous post:

After I wrote it, I remembered an incident that happened about 20 years ago in Washington DC when I was young and stupid. I was probably living right around the poverty line myself and was eating in a seedy takeout joint one day when I was approached by a street person asking for "bus fare". I refused and kept on eating, indignant that someone would approach me in a restuarant. I also flashed on an image of the corner liquer store that sold paper cups for .25 along with cheap booze for street drinking.

He drew himself up and proclaimed in a very loud voice, "You sir, have the heart the size of a mustard seed!"

He was/is right. I had a heart shrunk by thinking, guilt, and egoic self-absorption. Still do.

I don't think I could have recieved better teaching by a "spiritual teacher".

And, he did it for free.
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aquarius123esoteric
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Re: Doing

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:19 pm

'Prince Gautama found that human suffering was everywhere outside of his royal palace -- even Jesus concluded that the poor will be with us always.'

And do you know why? Because their condition is karmic, as all conditions are. It is also because the people involved in any kind of suffering - and I mean all of them, including those who in this case are running the charities, as well as us here on this message board reflecting on this dilemma and discussing it - are being taught some very important lessons. With love - Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

Goethe

You can find my writings and download
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aquarius123esoteric
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Re: Doing

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:23 pm

'I don't think I could have recieved better teaching by a "spiritual teacher". And, he did it for free.'

Don't you think that life itself is the best spiritual teacher of all - it's meant to be! When we have learnt to pay attention to it and also our inner guru - our intuition - of our own accord we stop looking towards those who call themselves gurus in the outer world. With love - Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

Goethe

You can find my writings and download
them free of charge from my website
www.raysofwisdom.com

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BrahmanEternal
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Re: Doing

Post by BrahmanEternal » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:41 pm

Onceler wrote: He was/is right. I had a heart shrunk by thinking, guilt, and egoic self-absorption. Still do.

I don't think I could have recieved better teaching by a "spiritual teacher".

And, he did it for free.
Aint most of us "non saints" like that? Absorbed in desire to become enlightened and wiser then most of those separated, egoistic bastards. :)
It seems once these lower order motivations vanish there is a place for higher order of things to emerge, hate blocks love and love is what completely heals all wounds.
Free of need to be Free.

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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:08 pm

Amen, BrahmanEternal and Aquarius123esoteric.

That was during my "zen" phase (my friends tell me I was truly insufferable and that if I told one more Zen story they would have strangled me) and I was always looking around for a teacher; you know, if you are ready a teacher will appear....

Ha!
Be present, be pleasant.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:23 pm

Onceler wrote: ...it sounds like your experiences in other countries were truly rich in learning and you gained perhaps
as much or more than you gave?
...

At the very least, I came away from all of that with the deep impression
that the dividing line between "me" and "them" was a very ephemeral one.

Years ago, in the mountains of Nepal, a fellow directed our attention to
the almost blinding, noon-day tropical sunshine, playing across the rippling
waters of a small stream.

"See that intense light?" he remarked -- "See how it cuts through the scene --
how it dances -- how it is connected, but appears in thousands of pieces?"

"Take away this scenery, and that brilliant radiance will remain -- it IS
this scenery in its TRUE BEING. And it is our TRUE BEING also. We are
all one essence, underneath our skins."

Which seems to say, to me at least, that what we call "charity" is simply
the left hand giving to the right hand. And that our compassion for others
is nothing essentially different than compassion without an object.

That Abiding Love which has no opposite -- (but the more we talk about it,
the more we add layer upon obscuring layer, over that Blinding Light --

-- that IS us all).

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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aquarius123esoteric
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Re: Doing

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:36 pm

'Abiding Love which has no opposite -- (but the more we talk about it,
the more we add layer upon obscuring layer, over that Blinding Light -- that IS us all).'

We are part of It and It is part of us. How right you are! It prefers to express itself in doing rather than saying, don't you think?

With love - Aquarius

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:49 pm

aquarius123esoteric wrote: ...don't you think...
Those three words could be diagrammed and parsed in so many ways!

They could be said with so many different inflections of voice, and have
so many different meanings!

And yes -- there are times when I think we should not think. And there
are times when I think we must think -- in order to understand exactly
why we should not ---

-- during those times when there is no time, and there is no thought.

I think...

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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aquarius123esoteric
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Re: Doing

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:51 pm

Were you by any chance born into one of the Air signs? They think their way through life. The keyword for each of the four elements is a different one. Water says: ‘I feel’; Earth: ‘I serve’; Fire: ‘I create’; and Air: ‘I think’.

To give you an example of how this can reflect itself, let us look at the French philosopher René Descarte, who was born 31 March 1596. His quote: ‘Cogito, ergo sum’ ‘I think, therefore I am’ to me, sounds typical of someone in whose birthchart the Air signs are strongly represented, in spite of Descarte being a Sun Aries. As six of his planets are in this sign, it does not come as a surprise that he was a pioneer and a forward thinking man. His time of birth is unknown, so there is no way of telling in which sign his Ascendant was. Not to worry; having a look at his date of birth numerologically reveals a great deal about the man and his approach to life. Here is the vital clue! Being born on the 31st day of any month means that one comes under the influence of Aquarius and its ruler Uranus, i.e. 3 Jupiter + 1 the Sun = 4 Uranus. The components of the total sum are as important as the total itself. Small wonder that he grew up to become a forward looking thinker and a philosopher, who felt the desire to shine and who had much to say and give to us and our world!

With love and light,
Aquarius
So long as this you fail to see:
That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

Goethe

You can find my writings and download
them free of charge from my website
www.raysofwisdom.com

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Onceler
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Re: Doing

Post by Onceler » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:14 am

"Small wonder that he grew up to become a forward looking thinker and a philosopher, who felt the desire to shine and who had much to say and give to us and our world!

Or, according to Eckart Tolle in The Power of Now, Descarte epitomized identification with thinking and ego and loss of awareness and being.
Be present, be pleasant.

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DBroadhurst
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Re: Doing

Post by DBroadhurst » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:20 am

aquarius123esoteric wrote: Were you by any chance born into one of the Air signs?
...

Don't recall that I took much notice at the time-- but it may have been under the
sign of Joe's Bar and Grill.

Yes, there is a place for thinking -- just like there's a place for brushing your teeth.
But in the awareness beyond thought is Truth, and that generally trumps thinking.

D.
"Let all my songs gather together their diverse strains into a single current and flow to a
sea of silence, in one salutation to Thee." - Rabindranath Tagore

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Re: Doing

Post by heidi » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:16 pm

Don't recall that I took much notice at the time-- but it may have been under the
sign of Joe's Bar and Grill.
:lol:

I had to look up and see if I was one, and I guess I'm doomed to "tinky too much" as the monk said. Ha ha ha, but airy that I am we are happy to report that there's little identifying with the astrological label. :)
Heidi
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