Total Failure

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Re: Total Failure

Postby Sighclone » Wed May 14, 2008 7:14 am

Eckhart is fond of reminding us that it does not matter "what" we do, but "how" we do it. There are many "failed" fathers who have produced sons who were excellent fathers. When fully settled in Being, our actions come from Being, not from ego. Eckhart says he felt "oh, another book wants to be written...ok," and he picked up a pen and pad.

Andy
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Re: Total Failure

Postby innerhike » Wed May 14, 2008 8:17 am

In response to Narayan's posting:

In general success would be doing (or for that matter being) and reaching what you wanted to do.
Failing would be not getting there and also not learning from it, hence repeating it (being unconsious).


Do you think these words (fail, succeed) are redundant?


To me failure in the context of this discussion is as follows:

It is characterized by the sense that one has tried everything that one knows to do, and yet one has not achieved one's desires or hopes.

In your definition, one needs to try again.

In my defintion, true failure is of the ego, where one realizes that the failure is symptomatic of the fact that one's motivations and means were all rooted in ego. And that surrender is where one needs to come from in terms of motivations, means and action.

Once you have surrendered, you may find that you are no longer moved to act to achieve the previously cherished objective. Or you may find otherwise, in that Life or Self is compelling you to act towards that objective and you are powerless to resist it. In either case it is important that one surrenders and comes from a place of true emptiness, instead of one's egoic imaginings and doings.

---

In regards to HermitLoon:

I have to say that I find you to be a bit too non-dualistic in your writings/expression. It may be an impediment to communication on a forum like this.

Even Nisargadatta Maharaj whom you quote often and seem to admire was quite argumentative and lively. He kept trying to get people in his audience to talk. Matter of fact he was quite different from Ramana Maharshi in that he wanted his audience to ask questions and clear their doubts.

To talk we have to use words and words have to have meaning. I may greatly cherish peace, but to help myself and others stabilize in it sometimes I may have to resort to what appears to be non-peaceful discussion/means. I have no trouble accepting and believing that I am operating from ego. Until such time I am completely established in peace, and my personality is completely gone, it is best I acknowledge my madness and speak from it.
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Re: Total Failure

Postby HermitLoon » Wed May 14, 2008 2:39 pm

Hello Innerhike! you wrote:
"I have to say that I find you to be a bit too non-dualistic in your writings/expression. It may be an impediment to communication on a forum like this."
And yet you responded?
hmmmmm...
I will think about that for a while.....and I respect your POV!

A few more quotes that resonate:
Chopra - " Peace is our natural state."
Tolle - "There is no one that does not want Peace."
...and tying both together...
Maharaj - "What do you really want? To be perfect? You already are!"

Peace and Joy
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Sighclone » Wed May 14, 2008 5:57 pm

innerhike -

Until such time I am completely established in peace, and my personality is completely gone, it is best I acknowledge my madness and speak from it.


Just above this sentence you note that Maharaj and Maharshi had different styles. I think we can fairly assume they had different personalities. And their personality was likely different from Eckhart's. And yours. And kiki's and mine, etc...

Why do you think that when fully self-realized you won't have a personality? You will certainly have a body, feelings, thoughts, etc. Your words will be spoken with a tone of voice. You just won't be identified with any of that, you will see them as part of maya. A living human being without a personality, at any level of consciousness, simply does not exist. Do not look to the death of the personality as an indicator of being 'established in peace.'

I am sorry you feel you have 'madness'. I know you have had suffering. I also know you have wisdom. And I like your personality. Please tell us when it changes, because we may not know.

* * * * * *

(From p. 505 in 'I am That', 4th ed, 2004, by Maharaj):

Q: I have understood that personality is an illusion, and alert detachment, without loss of identity, is our point of contact with reality. Will you, please, tell me - at this moment are you a person or a self-aware identity?

M: I am both. But the real self cannot be described except in terms supplied by the person, in terms of what I am not. All you can tell about the person is not the self, and you can tell nothing about the self, which should not refer to the person, as it is, as it could be, as it should be. All attributes are personal. The real is beyond all attributes.

* * * * * *

So, you 'the person' will still be here; we will still see the 'false you,' your 'personality.' Which is OK - part of Lila!!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Total Failure

Postby innerhike » Thu May 15, 2008 6:38 am

Andy,

I have no problem with acknowledging the "divine", the "perfect" in me.

However, I do have a problem with people speaking to this part of themselves too early in the game of enlightenment.

Until I am established in the absolute, let me not speak from that point of view.

The courageous spiritual warrior finds new battles to fight instead of sitting back thinking that the game is over.

The temptation with this non-duality stuff is to believe that one is fully baked or enlightened when really one is not.

There are too many such incomplete awakenings happening and being labeled as complete ones.

This is my hypothesis. I have spent at least 15 years around non-duality circles and have my own take on this scene.

Perhaps the people who believe that there is only enlightenment and only Love will see me as someone who is too identified with the idea of struggle and stages of development. And that is okay. I would rather be a minority in non-duality circles than go around believing the idea of "I am That". I would rather acknowledge all of myself, as I am at this time, instead of subscribing to some idea of perfection.

It is more beneficial to see one's own madness and follies instead of believing that one is as developed as one can be.

---

HermitLoon,

I will attempt to communicate with anyone and everyone unless of course I find that there is no purpose in such communication.

I very much welcome your presence on this forum and look forward to reading more of your posts.

Sometimes I find myself taking a contrarian position not necessarily to grind an ax, but to tease out some things that are not making sense or appear to be a bit "off".

I appreciate your consideration of what I shared and know that I will continue to read your posts and engage with you as I am moved.
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Re: Total Failure

Postby HermitLoon » Thu May 15, 2008 12:56 pm

Whew! thanks for the clarification Innerhike - for a moment there I thought maybe you were suggesting I "go away"!
I enjoy Chopra's description of the Spiritual Journey as similar to peeling away the layers of an onion until we arrive at the understanding of "Essence" - the true perfection of our being that is (was) always there. Being aware of all that we are - personality, ego, spirit, mind, body, conditioned thoughts, instinct, etc. - and beyond - might be called "Enlightenment". I can only share what I am aware of. My peace has come about more by exploration and by surrendering to what is than thru seeking or "the spiritual battle" - and when is it "too early in the game"?

Peace and Joy
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Narayan » Thu May 15, 2008 10:41 pm

innerhike wrote:Until I am established in the absolute, let me not speak from that point of view.
...
There are too many such incomplete awakenings happening and being labeled as complete ones.

innerhike, what needs to happen to an awakening being complete?


And regarding the discussion about failure/success:

innerhike wrote:In my defintion, true failure is of the ego, where one realizes that the failure is symptomatic of the fact that one's motivations and means were all rooted in ego. And that surrender is where one needs to come from in terms of motivations, means and action.

Once you have surrendered, you may find that you are no longer moved to act to achieve the previously cherished objective. Or you may find otherwise, in that Life or Self is compelling you to act towards that objective and you are powerless to resist it. In either case it is important that one surrenders and comes from a place of true emptiness, instead of one's egoic imaginings and doings.

True emptiness means free of ego motivation? I would interprete it as being aligned with the flow of life, with the divine development of the world of form!?
"Be the change you want to see in this world." - Gandhi | current site: Personal Development that Transforms
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Re: Total Failure

Postby summer » Fri May 16, 2008 6:28 am

I think that the age of our bodies is an important factor in this discussion. For an older person like Adyashanti or Hermitloon, to say that all of our failures actually turned out to be successes in a way that we didn't expect, is very true. But to advise a younger person to not even try to suceed in life, when that person is newly married, with perhaps two young children to care for, would not be very wise advice.

I look back, and I am so glad that I gave every situation that I found myself in, every ounce that I could muster up. Very often it didn't turn out as well as I hoped. But I never would have learned who the real Boss is behind the scenes, if I hadn't tried so hard.

I think that this is what Adyashanti is speaking of, when we says that our failures often turn into successes. Two sides of the same coin, in this experience of duality.
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Re: Total Failure

Postby HermitLoon » Fri May 16, 2008 12:50 pm

Thank you summer! I agree! Living in the now doesn't mean passive apathy - indeed making the now sacred means giving our full attention(presence) to whatever we are doing, and that is enthusiastic passion and that guarantees as much achievement/"success" as we - in that moment - are capable of.

Peace and Joy

p.s. chapter ten of "A New Earth" addresses this with much more clarity than I am able to.
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Sighclone » Sat May 17, 2008 1:26 am

The hermit strikes again. HL reminds us that there is a significant difference between egoic striving and enthusiastic doing the the present. Th principal difference has to do with the source of the objective. If the source is egoic, the achievment will be fleeting and unsatisfactory. If the source is Source, our new Home, if you will, then both the doing, moment by moment in the present ,and the achieving will merge as the divine dance.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Mason » Sun May 18, 2008 4:38 am

.

Failure sensei is worthy of a bow and our gratitude for it’s tireless efforts to teach such unwilling students.
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Re: Total Failure

Postby logan65 » Sun May 14, 2017 9:54 am

Sighclone wrote:The hermit strikes again. HL reminds us that there is a significant difference between egoic striving and enthusiastic doing the the present. Th principal difference has to do with the source of the objective. If the source is egoic, the achievment will be fleeting and unsatisfactory. If the source is Source, our new Home, if you will, then both the doing, moment by moment in the present ,and the achieving will merge as the divine dance.

Namaste, Andy
how do you know when it's from source?
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Sighclone » Wed May 17, 2017 2:36 am

That is the right question. How can we distinguish a good or a bad habit from a nudge from the Universe? There are no hard and fast rules, but some general guidelines have to do with flow. Csikszentmihaly's books address that if you want an academic discussion. But mainly, if a day is just smooth without a lot of grasping and grief, Source is probably active, living through you. If some things just happen to show up in your life unexpectedly and favorably, then Source is likely to be moving it along. But I'm open to others' thinking here for sure.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
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Re: Total Failure

Postby Webwanderer » Wed May 17, 2017 6:42 pm

logan65 wrote:how do you know when it's from source?

Here's how I see it. That which comes from Source is expansive. It's inclusive. It brings a sense of life being okay as it is. There's no judgment from Source. There's no right or wrong. There's only opportunity to love and appreciate life through a larger perspective. All that said, there's nothing wrong with an egoic perspective. The results of which generate the emotions that provide the opportunity to see the contrast between the two.

WW
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