Spirituality and Drive

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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:04 am

Adya on "After Awakening" -

This is from the 6th track of CD #1 of "The End of Your World", his latest 6-CD set. Cost is $80 at his website, perhaps cheaper elsewhere. It is copyrighted so I will not post any links to unauthorized versions if there are any.

1) A non-abiding awakening is one in which it is not complete - Adya had one and then 6 years later he was fully self-realized.

2) Expect a period of disorientation when egoic motivations disappear. He has had many students for whom this happened. But once the process has started, it gets completed. Even strongly egoic people can awaken.

3) The "seeker" disappears, but the personality remains - Jesus had a personality, trees have a personality, every "body" has a personality.

4) As the ego dissolves, as the egoic motivations and structure disappear, initially nothing replaces it...this is part of the disorientation...and the disorientation is totally natural.

5) We find orientation by not trying to find orientation. The new energy from Source does not immediately arise - there is a gap after egoic life disappears...energy now comes from Source, but there is a gap. This may be good news or it may be bad news for some people.

6) This whole topic used to be very secret, but he thinks we need to talk about it more.

Those are almost direct quotes. And, having had a 'non-abiding' experience in February, I can certainly attest to the disorientation...but I'm doing much better now.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:55 am

A brief note on Tiger Woods. It would be easy to point to him as the greatest ego in the world of sports. But I do not see that. I see him in a battle with himself. A battle to call up the internal skills to defeat a potentially devastating painbody. He does it with a force of will. But I see it as a personal internal contest..."Can I calm myself enough to sink this 15-foot putt to get into a playoff?" Not: "Can I defeat this enemy, Rocco Mediate?" When he sank the putt, he did not stare at the player's box as if to say "Take that, Rocco." No, it was a personal celebration of his victory over his nerves.

He also does some very "Zen-zone,' "present moment" concentration exercises when he hits shots. So did Ben Hogan and Jack Nicklaus. These are profoundly personal things.

Now I'm not going to announce that Tiger is non-egoic. That would be presumptuous and likely just plain wrong. I do not have a monitor on anyone's ego, even my own. But I do see something nondual about his inner work...and it seems to be a game, "lila" if you will, in his personal slice of maya.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:37 pm

Andy, thank you for the comments and quotes on "After Awakening". I'm sure we will continue this conversation ...
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by the key master » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Thanks everybody for their insights on this thread.
And, having had a 'non-abiding' experience in February, I can certainly attest to the disorientation...but I'm doing much better now.
I still experience this disorientation. Sometimes I feel very alone, but not lonely necessarily. Watching others engage in pointless arguments sometimes makes me feel powerless, even scared. When someone complains to me and I say "That sucks" I second guess myself. Why am I feeding their ego? Because that's what they want me to do. In a few instance I've engaged in egoic conversation just for the benefit of the other person--and needless to say at these times I feel disoriented, confused, and alone. Its been less than 2 months since my awakening. I've been with all my old friends and family for the last 2 weeks, which is when these periods of disorientation became most pronounced. I guess this is all part of the journey though...

jason

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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:39 pm

Since we followed the between two worlds discussion in the Thead I'm in the gap, I'd like to go back to the drive-topic here and bring an interesting distinction to discussion:

If we talk about drive, what does this mean?
It means having a high motivation for action, to change, usually improve. It's the build up of potential energy to be invested and directed to a certain outcome, may it be a vision to be fulfilled or just one goal to be reached. The vision or goal, then with a plan for its creation, is so empowering, that one wants to be there.
If you add techniques like visualization to the goal, and feel it already there, you activate the law of attraction further more. Then it becomes just like changing the world of form to your image naturally.
This is drive to me.

Is there something else, like a spiritual drive? When it flows from source through you? Or is this just the same process?

Then another thing: Where does this energy come from? What about dissatisfaction? There you have the drive to change. And now a seemingly paradox: Accept the situation, then act from it.

What does this really mean? Of course it means: don't struggle with what is, since it is futile, it already is. Accept the is-ness and than act. Well ok, understood.

But I don't like this situation, and create drive from there. So what about dissatisfaction? What about emotions like frustration and anger? We've been teached, they don't lead to positive results. But still they can be triggers. So use them? Or don't use them? Allow them fully, or let them go through you? And here is the problem: go for "higher" emotion, but the anger emotion is a counterpart. If it comes from another person, it may be stronger, than say, joy for what you do. There is the danger of getting dominated by this force. So.. that can't happen, then I use the anger emothion as well ...

The world around you will support every energy in the right direction. The one who shouts the loudest will be heard, that's something I hear a lot and it seems to be true on certain levels, especially in business ...
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:44 am

Well this was a bit provoking and it is in danger of getting one of my thread-stopping postings ;)

Still I am a bit confused about my drive to create, which gave me so much joy in the past and pushed me to new levels of experience. Yes, it even pushed me to the awakening-experience. Today I saw the video with Eckard from the Unity-FM Village. He says paraphrased: "There are two movements in the universe: (1) the outward-movement, the creation of form and the wanting to experience the form and (2) the return-movement home to source, to oneness. The universe wants to know itself in its essence. It wants to find itself, after having lost itself, and know itself deeply for the first time. You can live balancing the two, create things connected to the source, this is The New Earth (conscious creation)".

So, I'll go on and balance these two, which also means I use and nuture my drive to create something inspiring ...
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:45 pm

This topic really occupies me at the moment. I want to digg a bit deeper, please stay with me.

I'm just reading "Power vs. Force" by David Hawkins. The chapter 12 "Power and Sports" especially touches "Spirituality and Drive". It's about greatness coming from power (meaning higher levels of consciousness, opposed to force which means lower levels). This is not ego-motivated - to stand out, to be great, to have money and fame. It is about pushing your own limits and therefore pushing the limits for all of mankind. It is about showing and raising potential and by that being inspired and an inspiration for others, being in-spirit.

This exactly is the drive. So when coming from power, instead of force, drive is aligned with spirit. A high intensity of drive, which can be reached by using the mind focused and constructively and by being inspired, then is a very desirable state, which translates to enthusiasm. Seeing it this way, it seems to be one of the highest energies of the outgoing-movement (s. my posting above) as it really works from spirit.

What do you think?
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:37 pm

I sense that you have distilled a spiritual lesson into a purpose, and that it has inspired enthusiastic activity. Is there compassion in every step?

Andy
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:27 am

Compassion in every step. This would be a noble thing to have. The things I create should be of service, for the use and for the joy of others. And I especially like to inspire people I can work with, and provide opportunities to grow and develop and be inspiring themselves. And the creation-process itself is quite fulfilling, it's the main motivator for me, a mixture between art and "handwork".
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:16 pm

narayan -

I like to poke at intelligent seekers. I've been reading two female nondual authors: "Passionate Presence" by Catherine Ingram (with an endorsement by Eckhart Tolle) and "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron (Buddhist nun). My question about compassion comes from those readings. Eckhart is pretty cerebral. So are you. So am I. Another compassionate teacher is Loch Kelly (lochkelly.org). I think it is matter of degree and style. Of course we can always check it out by asking "Do you think I care about you?" Compassion is felt by the other. Everybody knows when they receive love.

Andy
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:37 pm

Thanks Andy, I will have a look at those. Could you further explain in what way do you think compassion is related to the topic spirituality and drive?
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Craig » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:57 am

Spirituality and drive are not incompatible. Eckhart himself says as much in A New Earth. I think one of the processes that everyone moves through in spirituality is that they enter a period or stage where their motivation to do things disappears or plummets because they have this impression that getting too caught up in the world is a bad thing. You get caught in one of the spiritual traps and while you're thusly ensared, you believe that spirituality and drive are incompatible.

But remember that the true teachings tell us that Enlightenment and Samsara are one and the same. Or recall the guru who said that your ordinary state of consciousness is the Tao. These teachings are pointers to the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being engaged in the world. I know this sounds paradoxical, because a lot of spiritual teachings have this implication or connotation that being ensared in the world is a problem. But really, all these teachings are trying to do is to help you disidentify with certain fundamental assumptions that you took for granted. And eventually, one of the things that you have to disidentify with is the idea that this world is bad, or that the spiritual path involves limiting your interaction with it. This is one the reasons why the teachers tell you that enlightenment is not something that is a change away from your normal state.

Stop and think about it- "What is my normal state of consciousness like on any given day?" Whatever state it is is the enlightened state. So too are any states of consciousness that differ from the "normal" state. So if you're busy thinking away about something, that's it. If you're focused on what you're doing at work, that's it. If you're fast asleep, that's also it.

Once you start to realize this, you begin to let go of the belief that it's wrong to be involved in the world or fully participating with it. When you realize that whatever state you are is it, then it really doesn't matter too much how you choose to spend your time, and what you focus on. The great teachers teach that enlightenment is always there, and that it's unavoidable, and that means that it must be there when you're fully participating in the world with drive and purpose.
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:44 am

narayan - Re compassion:
From p. 162 of PON:
If there isn't an emanation of love and joy, complete presence and openness toward all beings, then it is not enlightenment.
Sounds like compassion to me.

Craig -
true teachings tell us that Enlightenment and Samsara are one and the same
I'm not sure about this. Taking 'samsara' to be the cycle of birth and death, let's look at p. 32 of 'Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi' (9th edition, 1994) on this: "Self-Realization is Bliss; it is realizing the Self as the limitless spiritual eye (jnana dristi) and not clairvoyance; it is the highest self-surrender. Smasara (the world cycle) is sorrow."

This, clearly is exactly the opposite of what you have said, Craig - but I'm open to clarification, or a higher authority than Maharshi on this. But to be honest, for me there are very few higher authorities.

If you mean, however, that we can still function effectively in society, I agree. But we need to be ready for all egoic motivations to vanish. All of them. I think this is what Adya refers to as disorientation.

Frankly, I have another thought on this. It's just a thought, not a message from Source, not even a hunch. The thought is that those who fully self-realize in the next 30 years will still be raw pioneers, and will have to be teachers. Not 'frequency holders' or random clerks, casino dealers, garbage men, accountants, or house-painters. But teachers, every last one of them. Because the world is spectacularly egoic. I see little changes here and there, little promises of a better life for people, but mainly I see egos marching along and not waking up.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Craig » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:32 am

I am making reference to Adya, whom I believe was quoting Zen sources, when he said that one of the ultimate realizations was that enlightenment and samsara are the same thing. But let's take the position that they are not the same. That would imply that there are two, absolutely real states which are different from one another. One state is the enlightened state. And one state is that of suffering and samsara. If this is the case, there is a problem, for what we have written is in direct conflict with everything being one, because now we have a duality- we have two. This comes back to the fact that oneness is not exclusionary, but rather all inclusive, so that things which are apparent opposites- enlightenment and samsara- are actually one.

But, I suspect that our discussion is something that arises entirely out of the nature of language. As such, it may be a pseudo-disagreement/problem.
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Re: Spirituality and Drive

Post by Narayan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:38 am

To me this looks like the same question we had here: "I am always in the Now. How can I be not in the Now?" Sure, you are always in the Now. But do you realize it? Are you aware of it? That is what enlightenment is all about.

If you are in the Now, then you realize, that it is the same, it is one. But only then you are aware of it!?
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