We are all enlightened

[Sighclone]

This is a new topic formed to continue a discussion from a thread named "Spirituality and Drive" which is here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4286

Craig has suggested, by quoting several authors that samsara and nirvana are the same thing, and that fundamentally we are all enlightened. I have disagreed, in general. Please read the last page of posts linked above as a reference point to future posts below.

Andy

[summer]

Webwanderer shared

It's not entirely looking that is leading seekers down the path of endless searching. It's more where it is they look. Most seekers of truth and enlightenment (myself included for a couple of decades) look outside, because even though there has been a constant mantra to look inside, it's difficult to get a sense of what that means. The mind naturally wants to look for conceptual ideas of enlightenment simply because that is its nature. And as one is identified with mind as ego it searches for concepts of being rather than experience. Even when an experience of a higher nature is had the mind seeks meaning to attach to it. The mind's idea of looking inside is to look inside its own thinking. In reality that is still looking outside for answers.

If one is going to look inside, it must be clear that looking inside refers to inside this moment. It's not the workshop we're going to attend next week, or the book we ordered or even tomorrow mornings meditation. It's in this moment that one must look to find truth.

All the spiritual books in the world cannot do what one direct look into this moment can do to awaken one to their true nature. Books and retreats have value only to the degree that they point and inspire the seeker lost in the story of life, to look in this very moment - without thought, without judgment, without restriction. Once this recognition of one's essential nature is clearly seen it becomes a sanctuary in all of life's storms. It is the essential perspective from which the events and challenges that come our way may be seen unencumbered by painbody influance.

Thanks, Webwanderer,

For the clearest description that I have ever read of what "Looking within" really means.

[kiki]

I agree with your assessment of the quote you provided from Webwanderer - pure gold there.

[HermitLoon]

Yes WW!
"The ego believes it depends upon the illusion of separation for its survival. When expierience of unity shows that the appearance of fundamental separation is false, it feels threatened. It wants to preserve itself, it wants to survive. That’s why it resists, and it draws upon the memory and conditioning of all past experiences of separation to perpetuate that illusion."
Deepak Chopra

[Onceler]

I too appreciate WW answer, thank-you.

Regarding my own response to enlightenment, I have found through inquiry of the conceptual impression, that I must fully accept that I am not enlightened...that it may not even exist...then I can clear some space for realization (maybe). Of course that goes for any concept, enlightenment is not more important than "should I lose a couple of pounds?" or "Is it important that people love me?"

I don't know.

[Webwanderer]

Thanks to all of you for your generous comments. Know too that I appreciate you all and the wonderful atmosphere your presence, and integrity, brings to the dialogs in this forum. It is truly remarkable what is happening here.

WW

[Craig]

I'd like to clarify a few things here. First of all, I am not wandering around going "Yay, I'm already enlightened!" If that's what you took out of my comments Andy, that's not really what's going on. What is going on is that I'm not trying to fight with the "egoic illusion" as something that's bad, wrong, or shouldn't be happening. After all, the "egoic illusion" is only a pseudo-problem, insofar that the ego is not really real, and more to the point, because the ego is just another manifestation of Brahman or whatever you wish to call it.

Maybe I've accepted a belief for the truth and need to reassess things. I can't say for sure- I'm not an expert. But when the spiritual teachers kept bringing up the point to stop searching (and it's not just Ken Wilber who says this), along with the point that you always already are it, I took them at their word. I began to see if there was anything in my experience corresponding with what could be the oneness, and so forth. I had ideas in my head about what this meant, but I knew that what these ideas corresponded to could never be captured acurately in language. So, again looking to the spiritual teachings, I contented myself that I did not really know, even if I thought I did.

Yet, nevertheless, a part of me still held out with the idea that this wasn't really it. But then what? Should I be struggling more and spending more time reading spiritual books, looking for articles on enlightenment, discussing the subject online on the forum because I'm not there according to what you say? Maybe. But it's really not clear that it's going to do much, if it's just a bunch of futility, as the spiritual teachers suggest. And if I stop worrying about the egoic illusion, that might mean that I'm going to be trapped in the world of Samsara because I'm not too concerned about it if it happens. But, then again, how is being trapped in the world of Samsara any different than right now?

For that matter, if there's any truth value in the pointer that "You've always already been enlightened" and if there's any truth value in what you say that someone may not be enlightened, then what does that really mean? It would seem to suggest to me that the whole feeling that you've always been enlightened is just something that exists in your mind/brain, rather than corresponding with any objective reality.

The funny thing though is that even if enlightenment only had a subjective reality, that wouldn't actually matter. But that's beside the point.

[Sighclone]

I have never met or heard of anyone who was enlightened have any question if they were or not. I have met many many people who are not enlightened and know it. I am one of the latter. Therefore, anyone who has any question if they are enlightened or not is not enlightened. But I have almost never heard of anyone who was born enlightened. So, you are born, then something happens and you are enlightened. What that is ( or "is not") has filled many books. But there is a shift.

And now I'm tired of this topic. Aren't you? Let's talk about something else. But thanks for the ideas.

Namaste, Andy

[Onceler]

And now I'm tired of this topic. Aren't you? Let's talk about something else. But thanks for the ideas.

Namaste, Andy

Agreed, let's talk about sports! How 'bout them Yankees?