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Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:58 pm
by lanroh
Hi Moonmissy


When you know the spaciousness in you that is awareness....there is still residual personalization, that diminishes over time with practice. Eventually, the awareness goes beyond the body perspective. Like jumping outside of a shell and realizing that it's not the shell. Then the observer disappears. All manifestation of bliss, rapture is gone...since there is no one there to experience it. Just deep emanating peace and total freedom. It is a state of total surrender, and life just flows without effort whatsoever.

Nobody in particular....is there.


J. Krishnamurti is right when he says: Its not that someone steps out of it, it is the mind is no longer in it.

On my journey of understanding what it is to be a human being, I have come upon things which I do not understand now but later become revealed in there own good time, I guess you could say one was not ripe enough at that moment. I have heard it said you can't see your self by yourself. I write here to use my friends as a mirror because I do not have one without you all :)



It is in this spirit I press a little to grow in understanding. It maybe said that true understanding does not take time, that all happens now, I understand this to be true, yet it has taken chronological time for a mind divided, in a state of duality to have its dualistic nature revealed coming from a common source.



I sense many before us have had the curiosity to go within and have come upon the dualistic nature of the thinking process. I could be in error but I feel this stage of understanding to be absolutely critical. There could be a short cut who knows, but for most of us transformation of consciousness is the tearing down of ones mental house.



Beyond this I sense you are eluding to is this: Being trapped in a house, a mental house, one attempts to escape the room one is trapped in only to find one has just become trapped in another room. Later one is not interested in escaping one room just to end up in another, one wants to escape the whole house.



As I sense your aware the primary situation is the notion that there is even a house, that there is one that is even trapped.



If we look at my above line I sense it can be seen that the house and the one who was attempting to escape were both manifestation from the content of the mind. Yet if there is a sense of an observer, a realizer separate from the observation has not the mind just created the next house?



Tolle and others before him have pointed to the complete stepping out of time, they have even pointed as Krishnamurti did: It is not that someone steps out of it, it is the mind is no longer in it. Does this have meaning?



Maybe this is where most including myself have had trouble. Yes it does have meaning and yet it doesn't. What I mean by this is our brain the way they have been conditioned, they have been conditioned to the world of opposites, Good and bad, lost and enlightened. Yet when we negate something, do to conditioning, we think that the void gets replaced with something else, an answer. The answer becomes the next prison, the next duality.



When It does not get replaced there is to me the ending of time. Only for that moment, only for now.



That void, that emptiness, that presence maybe the what is, free of attachments, but in essence it seems to be the field which all is played on.



I did not mean to be a lot of hot air, It would of been better just to have a cup of tea.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:07 pm
by lanroh
Hi Sighclone
That statement is, to me utterly and deeply profound. It implies that there is no self, no person, and really, no witness. It is a very existential statment. And once, in meditation, before hearing that interview, I asked myself the question, as ET wants us to do at all times: "What is your relationship to the present moment?" The answer was odd, it was "I am the present moment."
Thank you so much Sighclone, That was much better then my long winded reply to Moonmissy. Really the statement by Tolle and your response hit the nail on the head for me.

What responded in me was this: If there is a relationship between me and the present moment there is duality, there is only the one, the present moment.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:18 pm
by the key master
Lanroh said,
That was much better then my long winded reply to Moonmissy. Really the statement by Tolle and your response hit the nail on the head for me.

What responded in me was this: If there is a relationship between me and the present moment there is duality, there is only the one, the present moment.
Fragmentation of Reality by mind into past and future forms the nucleus of duality. As we become aware of the tendencies of the mind, we become capable of going beyond mind, as the witness, and then beyond the witness. The journey of self realization, paradoxically, unfolds through time within the manifested, or one could even say as the manifested. Mind wants to understand what's happening. Mind is scared of the unknown, so it attempts to make it known through the only means available, thinking. Its like trying to cut wood with a spoon. Realize the futility of such effort. Know that you can't possibly know You with mind. Put the mind-spoon down, and pick up this chainsaw of Being that has always been you, and watch that wood cut itself.

Best,
Jason

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:57 pm
by lanroh
Hi Jason



I am not sure this mind is scared of the unknown even though I can see how time would end if the unknown was present, only through an intuitive sense because thought can't see its own self end :)



What I mean is this, I have been having trouble putting together a question which I seem to only be able to ask myself through intuition.



Putting the psychological self as time behind for a moment, human life takes place in the field of time. Truth maybe a pathless land, maybe there is no correct way of going about anything. Yet each day and each moment we must pick a direction. examples: this house or that one, this job or the other, two new tires or all four. There is a risk such with the tires that by holding off on all four you will have a flat or worse someone will get hurt. At the same time your twelve year old needs braces.



The question one puts to one self is this: Time is the criteria we use to measure risk, past experience. We also use past psychological experience of others taking into account a certain amount of risk of certain behavior patterns by those reoccurring, if we did not every move we would make would take forever, being all action would have to be based on the limited experience of the now which maybe incomplete and not serving for example the child which needs braces.



I guess my main point is: Stepping out of time is great for cleaning a mental house, but when I need a vacuum to clean ones physical house, time as experience, even the psychological experience of a cunning vacuum salesman is helpful.



When we sense or feel we are controlling when time is used or not used, who is that one making that choice and what criteria does it based that decision?



I just sense you need to know before one doesn't know :)



Truth maybe a pathless land, yet any direction one goes is a path, in truth one path maybe as equal as the next. Yet through understanding and past experience we may not take the same path twice or it maybe the opposite certain paths have been seen to hold the least amount of resistance and provide the greatest benefits such as straight teeth for the child.



I guess it boils down to a chooser, I have heard the expression choiceless awareness, but for now I only have a created example of the problem, (situation) four tires or braces.



To be or not to be, or time or timelessness, unmanifest or manifest.



In the end was ones choice the best choice from the data that was available. And choice implies time, subject and object.



We are like God sitting alone coming upon that ones existence is the observed.



I guess this is why they say there is only one God :) Just a little humor, maybe more truth then humor. ( There is only one) I have for a long time seen the Christian God of the bible being a symbolic projection of every humans condition of non-duality.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:38 am
by moonmissy
lanroh wrote: We are like God sitting alone coming upon that ones existence is the observed.
I know I would get crucified by the Christians for this, but "we are God". :lol:

The formless has always been and always be. There is no division between the form and formless.
To be liberated is to be free of all mental concepts as a reality despite the use of them.

There is a pretty clear description ...well...relative description of the various unfolding or peeling away of mental stuffs which is described http://parama.com/html/body_stages.html by John Veltheim.

Nothing really happens outside in the world of form...everything changes inside.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 12:48 pm
by Sighclone
Thanks mm!! I really enjoyed his summary - better that other stuff I've read. Now I just have to figure out how to get started down that path. :)

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:21 pm
by HermitLoon
From the article:

"Their ‘goal’ is the elimination of all concepts. At the deepest level, they are aware that manifestation is appearance of nothing, out of no-thing-ness, and its return to no-thing-ness. In essence, nothing has been created, nothing has been born, and nothing dies. So what is all the fuss about?

In the full Satguru, all AMness has disappeared except that miniscule energy necessary for the bodymind to remain in appearance. Essentially, when they are on their own, they are like the perfectly calm pond in absolute peace. No thoughts, as we would recognize them. When somebody appears before them, a ripple is created on the pond to give them sufficient appearance of personality to interact. Once the interaction is completed, they return to silence.

The ‘I’ of the ‘I AM’ in the Jnani now disappears as well. Remember that the ‘I’ was the perceiver of the ‘AM’. In the Satguru, there is no concept of a perceiver in the first stages of Satguru. There is only ‘perceiving’ happening. At full Satguru even the ‘perceiving’ ceases. Now there is only ‘IS’. This is beyond conceptualization with the mind.

The Satguru is only interested in dispelling concepts. The Jnani will often enjoy the dialectics of debating concepts and techniques, and tends to pursue ideas to create temporary understandings for the student. From this we have received some of the great teachings of some of the great sages of history.

The Satguru will not let the student stray far in concepts, and will continue to challenge the basic concepts, and even challenge why the question was asked in the first place. They see that understanding is essentially impossible and, therefore, the well articulated answer to a question ultimately only increases the covering of ignorance. The Satguru is happy to see the student totally confused and frustrated, and will not relent until the student’s mind has totally collapsed. They know that only when the mind gives up all concepts, will there be peace.

Often times, the Satguru prefers to teach in silence and just allow ‘presence’ to be imparted to activate the ‘inner guru’."

Stillness Speaks

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:28 pm
by lanroh
Hi Moonmissy, Sighclone, Hermitloon and all.





Moonmissy, I want to thank you for giving my post the attention, the compassion of understanding you did. Sighclone and Hemit, all, one stopping at this sight, this forum for a day could miss the well intentioned spirits which dwell here, at least for the moment :) My above words come from a sense of gratefulness to find others on a common walk of understanding. I must admit at first I did not recognize you, Maybe a year ago I would of dropped by and left without recognizing you. So I am pleased by grace I have.



Moonmissy I enjoyed the article you directed me to, It reminded me of how teachers, true teachers use concepts to communicate and the student gets lost in the teachers concepts when the teacher is really pointing to the end of all concepts.


To be liberated is to be free of all mental concepts as a reality despite the use of them.

The above statement contains the alpha and the omega of my journey. My journey is not over because one is still in the bondage of unconscious concepts. The moments when freedom is present are fleeting.



Tolle said something which resonates with what we are talking about.


In a life and death situation there really is no problem, ether you live or you die


Tires or braces, maybe there is no correct answer, yet one can't stand irresolute. A path will be taken even in confusion, the stream of happening stops for no-thing even confusion.



By the way irresolute: meaning unable to make up ones mind. Isn't that what it is all about, being aware that we have (made) up our minds, that our perception is not coming from some place outside of us.





I wondered why there was so many readers and so little responders here at this forum? My little mind put it into a box and said, maybe that there are those here, maybe through fear, who did not get involved, that is how the little mind limits everything. The reasons are endless but I suspect that there are those who get more from listening then Talking.



For now I will listen and talk :)

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:24 pm
by Sighclone
lanroh -

Because of the number of silent readers, I always try to be clear and authentic - to come from the best inner Source I can become (or find or reflect.) Fundamentally three types of people visit here; tire-kickers, seekers and those suffering from mental or physical distress. All deserve the best we can reflect from our experience and our study. Thanks for your contributions - the best ones come from people experiencing new spiritual events.

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:58 am
by moonmissy
lanroh,

Thank you for being here. My journey have been also undertaken here with the guidance of those on the forum (and my master in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam ofcourse :D ). In the practice of being one with the oneness, there are many obstacles created by the mind. Sometimes pointers, esspecially those arrising from the silent oneness helps to direct us back home again when we lost our way. These pointers, strangely, sometimes arises from the practicing person his/herself when he/she is trying to help others. What I post on here is as much a benefit to myself as to others. In the very act of giving we receive.

I finally understood as a Buddhist what true compassion means through PON. "The love of the oneness, that is the oneness in all forms without separation." When you are seated in the oneness, there is no need for rules, precepts or path...the eighfold paths becomes one of surrender in the present moment that radiates of love through the form of whatever it happens to be, me, you or anyone who is emersed in the present moment, even for a split second (even a terrible person as Hitler has one of those moments).

Thank you Andy for allowing me to be here and babble on.... :lol:
Thank you all for the questions and challenges in your post to help each other find our way home.

Namaste, MM