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Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:06 pm
by the key master
"You live, you feel, you think. By giving attention to your living, feeling and thinking, you free yourself from them and go beyond them. Your personality dissolves and only the witness remains. Then you go beyond the witness. Do not ask how it happens. Just search within yourself." (Maharaj I AM THAT pp 189-190)

There is something very deep and very real about going beyond the witness. Here is my experience.

The witness equates to the field of awareness where thoughts and emotions arise. An entire life can be spent building empty walls around one's mind out of fear, desire, and control, all in furtherance of the illusion that mind-body accurately portray all that is Self. Then, for some, a demolition crew arrives, and exposes the illusory nature of the empty walls. A glimpse of Truth, which is to say the timeless, changeless essence of OneSelf, is all that is needed. Vigilance to Truth becomes crucial for the "demolition project" to proceed. Vigilance is to take every experience of resistance to what is, thrust it into the field of awareness, see it from the light of Truth, and be.

The nature of thought, and how and why one gets attached to thought and corresponding emotions, is made apparent. The One who considers fidelity to Truth paramount takes these insights and realizes the utter uselessness of most thought. Some will hang on to self-aggrandizing thoughts misperceiving Reality by vesting a sense of self in the positive emotional state experienced during such thoughts. More suffering is all that is guaranteed. The One however discards thinking altogether when unnecessary. It takes time for the fruit to ripen but only an instant to fall. Right now is that instant, and always is.

The demolition project is then complete, and the empty walls are seen for what they always have been, which is no thing. Then the infinite potential of the One is realized. Then you go beyond the witness. Words cannot touch this.

-Jason

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:42 pm
by Sighclone
Jason -

You have approached a subject which is very hard to do with words, but I believe your phrasing is very helpful, at least for me - thank you!

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:47 am
by moonmissy
the key master wrote: The nature of thought, and how and why one gets attached to thought and corresponding emotions, is made apparent. The One who considers fidelity to Truth paramount takes these insights and realizes the utter uselessness of most thought. Some will hang on to self-aggrandizing thoughts misperceiving Reality by vesting a sense of self in the positive emotional state experienced during such thoughts. More suffering is all that is guaranteed. The One however discards thinking altogether when unnecessary. It takes time for the fruit to ripen but only an instant to fall. Right now is that instant, and always is.
Thinking, thoughts, form, words, the body, space...all things that ever existed are all undivisible part of that oneness, it doesn't add or take away anything of that oneness. Illusion of individual self (ego) and all things experienced as been separate from all that is are also illusions. Nothing ever happens, nothing ever changes, no one goes anywhere, no one observes, time does not exist, not even the now. That spaciousness beyond consciousness which makes up consciousness all all things in it, has always been and always be.

Sound really scary to most people. :lol: A total obliviation of everything they thought or perceived to be real. *POOF* :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes, you can't wrap your mind around this :mrgreen:

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:08 pm
by Sighclone
This is from Dhyan Dewyea - her website is beyond-the-i.com

The End of Longing

This self realization is not just another nice, powerful, or intriguing state like some of the ones which can happen on the inner journey. It does not go away. This is why it is not a state, because a state can change into some other state. Being at source is the precondition for all states. States belong to the manifest person. The source precedes all manifestation and is the same undivided One that underlies everyone and everything, whether it is known or not.

All this amounts to a qualitative and distinct leap in perception; as if the perception is moved from the head to the feet for the first time. But the body and its operating systems, its personality features, may not change — awakening is not about change.

There are people who might say ‘you had a spiritual experience, good for you.’ No, this is not another experience in a long succession of life experiences. An experience implies that there is an experiencer and something that is experienced — it belongs to the level of duality. There is no experiencer and nothing experienced in this. The experiencing, the observing, the watching subject, all fall back into pure subjectivity (another term for source). There is no one there anymore to have an experience.

(I realize this is the second time I've posted this excerpt. It will be the last, except for within my review of her book, forthcoming.)

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:48 pm
by the key master
MM said,
Nothing ever happens, nothing ever changes, no one goes anywhere, no one observes, time does not exist, not even the now. That spaciousness beyond consciousness which makes up consciousness all all things in it, has always been and always be.
Succinctly put. Being nothing isn't so bad.

And thanks Sighclone for that excerpt. Dewyea writes with great depth from what I can tell. The end of longing is a great way of looking at going beyond the witness, particularly for those still heavily influenced by logic, as I once was.

-jason

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:33 am
by lanroh
Hi Sighclone, Jason, all.


There are people who might say ‘you had a spiritual experience, good for you.’ No, this is not another experience in a long succession of life experiences. An experience implies that there is an experiencer and something that is experienced — it belongs to the level of duality. There is no experiencer and nothing experienced in this. The experiencing, the observing, the watching subject, all fall back into pure subjectivity (another term for source). There is no one there anymore to have an experience.


I am looking forward to your review on the book, I do not always have time to seek out a good book, a review will be helpful from some one with a common interest.



The experiencing, the observing, the watching subject, all fall back into pure subjectivity (another term for source). There is no one there anymore to have an experience.


Sighclone, the mind here has come upon this sense of non duality, in a sense Tolle's point toward naked presence. I will try to say something without being or creating duality. At that point which really is no point, as the mind oscillates between being and non being, pure unburdened, naked potentiality. There for me a stalemate, OK here comes the duality :) If the potential remains unmainfest human life is unmanifest, if the potential manifest it (seems) to do so always as an expression of duality, subject object. I would agree that there is a knowing of reading between the lines that there is not a duality that really there is only one movement, the manifest and the product which has manifested is one and the same, yet any sense that one can put ones hands on the steering wheel and control this phenomenon is real duality.



This takes me to Eckhart Tolle and and area I am having difficulty at this time. He speaks of the pain body or the ego as separate from presence, by being presence, meaning being that which is outside of the pain body or ego, in other words being that's which sees the mechanics of the ego or the pain body, at that very moment one is awake, conscious. It makes complete sense to one side of me :) But two the other, the side which says all returns to the one ( pure potential) it says a watcher, a presence is still a form, a manifestation and a presence which must have but a few moments of existence, if not that presence becomes the new ego, the next unconsciousness, the new duality.



Sighclone, I stand to be corrected, I lay this before you and others in the hope that my friends here may catch something I may be missing.



One more point, To this mind it seems that human life takes place in the manifest, it moves, thought moves, changes forms by the duality of opposites feeding in a sense upon each other. In a sense when the mind comes upon its dualitic nature the movement of thought and ourselves end, being that self and thought are one and the same, the source and form are one and the same, the only difference is that when potential crystallizes, becomes matter, that which has been formless has become form. So Again I see a stalemate, if human lifes moves forward it does so through illusion, it does so with the sense of an observer. One becomes in a sense an engine that can only start for a moment, one knows if it runs it will move far from its original face, the source.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:54 am
by Sighclone
lanroh -

It's hard to keep the little monkey-mind from grinding his hurdy-gurdy. Dhyan says
All this amounts to a qualitative and distinct leap in perception
After awakening we perceive things differently. Manifest is very clearly manifest to those who have not had an alternate perspecive appear. For me, when Quantum Mechanics began to turn the known space-time universe into just a bunch of wave/particle potentiaities and probabilities, the need to change perspective or zeitgeist was vital. And my search began. It ended in nonduality land.

Although the unmanifest informs and interpenetrates the manifest, all people perceive reality from their own level of consciousness.

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:30 pm
by lanroh
Hi Sighclone

Nonduality land :)

Really I asked a question that most likely can't be answered. Life is a mystery, in a real sense all is unknown. When it becomes the known as my mind was trying to make the witnessing presence, make it something limited, it is no longer pure potencial.

Human life has risen, conceptual reality has come about through taking that which is a mystery and appling labels and meanings to that which has no limitation, no description.

Awareness, pure awareness points to the oneness of the observer and the observed, in my case the questioner and the question. Human life is like a carrot in front of a goat cart, meaning the division creating the observer and the observed is like a carrot being place in front of one self. From the source both the observer and the carrot are but manifestations, forms, yet if the source only projected, manufactured one or the other but not duality, would the cart move, would there be human life.

At best I have learned to walk between two beings, being and nonbeing. When I am walking I am being :)

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:23 pm
by Sighclone
lanroh -

On p. 162 of PON, Eckhart talks about life bringing us the challenges we need. I believe that. Do I always respond correctly to those nudges? Nah, I've repeatedly rebuffed Source and marched to my own distracted drummer until significant suffering was the result. I'm a little better now, and I'm a little more sensitive to the nudges, and some of them are attaboys, in fact. And some of them are stubbed toes.

My point here has to do with finding the unmanifested in the manifested...it's there. Even when you are walking.

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:23 am
by lanroh
Hi Sighclone


My point here has to do with finding the unmanifested in the manifested...it's there. Even when you are walking.


Thank you Sighclone for the point you made above. I do need to get a copy of PON in paperback, right now I only have it on CD. It was by accident that I ended up with the New Earth in both paper back and CD. I would like to comment that a certain quality comes from having them both. One way, book form the mind takes away a certain quality from actually reading it. By listening to the CD and hearing the rhythm changes in Tolle's voice or that of any speaker, one comes away maybe with a little more of the intent of the speaker in what they were trying to express, yet by reading the book one gets to see more of ones self by ones reactions and interpretations of what was being read, if so fortunate.



Here as with any forum we are both limited two the single dimension of reading what the other person has written and sometimes missing the intention of that person. I am not saying this is happening between you and I because I feel we have had a good communication. I was just expressing a point of just how difficult communication can be when there is no sound rhythm or no body language.



Be well, and thank you for looking into this with me.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:22 am
by Sighclone
lanroh -

I detect nothing adversarial here. We are both attempting to express some multi-faceted truths, as we see them with the limited tool of the written word. Conflicting impressions of spiritual truths and experiences are actually good things. I have grown in many ways by listening to perspectives which varied from mine at the time of reading them.

And even if there were adversarial presentations, we have the common goal of advancing the ball. I've been challenging a new member elsewhere, and he, me. But ultimately, if we keep plugging away, showing respect, knowledge increases. Granted that thoughts and concepts, however well-phrased will all fall short of describing "...the eternal tao." It is still useful to show our love for each other in small, incomplete ways.

Namaste, Andy

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:08 pm
by lanroh
Sighclone

Seeing and feeling this with you.

Lanroh

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:43 am
by moonmissy
Andy, here is something I guess a bit simplier from a practitioner point of view.

When we follow the PON, we find silence and eventually the spaciousness around thoughts, the watcher. However, beyond that, what we think is awareness or the watcher is still personalized...because it is locally focused from the perspective of being in the physical body and looking out .....subject vs. object.

This is hard to describe...but I'm going to try.

When you know the spaciousness in you that is awareness....there is still residual personalization, that diminishes over time with practice. Eventually, the awareness goes beyond the body perspective. Like jumping outside of a shell and realizing that it's not the shell. Then the observer dissappears. All manifestation of bliss, rapture is gone...since there is no one there to experience it. Just deep eminating peace and total freedom. It is a state of total surrender, and life just flows without effort whatsoever.

Nobody in particular....is there. :lol:

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:53 pm
by HermitLoon
Yes Moonmissy :)
"We" are Source ("God" if you will) creating and having a "Human Experience".
The illusion of separation is what makes the "Experience" possible.
In reality "we" are Source - "All" is One.

Re: Going Beyond the Witness

Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:40 pm
by Sighclone
Oh, gosh, is that HermitLoon? Always welcome here you are, HL. And thanks for your typical wisdom.

Eckhart has little gems interspersed throughout his work which resonate with me at various times. Well before he appeared in Oprah's famous webinar, she and he had two one-hour filmed radio interviews which she has broadcast via her website. this was in September, 2007. In a passing moment in the first one, Eckhart said:
" You are the present moment."
That statement is, to me utterly and deeply profound. It implies that there is no self, no person, and really, no witness. It is a very existential statment. And once, in meditation, before hearing that interview, I asked myself the question, as ET wants us to do at all times: "What is your relationship to the present moment?" The answer was odd, it was "I am the present moment."

Trust me, since that time, I have been very much not "the present moment." But I've had a taste.

Namaste, Andy